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Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

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Halaster-Blackcloak
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Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#1 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:12 am

I figured I'd put this in the general section since it's not just a DM question. Has anyone ever experienced problems in a party where you have clerics of different faiths? I thought about this when Garhkal posted about a party not having a cleric who can turn undead because they were looking at other cool abilities a particular cleric might get.

I can see some cleric combinations getting along more than others. But in any case, shouldn't clerics be a bit aggressive towards one another, if not outright combative?

Let's look at an extreme example. If a party has two clerics - one serving Athena and another serving Ares - well, there's gonna be problems! 8O :

"Athena's clerics are aggressive in their attempts to spread her worship, and are contemptful of all other clerics. Whenever possible, they will act to oppose clerics of Ares."

- Deities & Demigods, pg. 66


Under the description for Ares:

"Both clerical groups [Athena's and Ares'] will oppose each other at every opportunity.

- Deities & Demigods, pg. 66


And from Legends & Lore (2E):

"They [Athena's clerics] must...be ready to fight whenever they encounter worshipers of Ares."

- Legends & Lore pg. 112


"There is great rivalry between Ares and Athena. Whenever his worshipers meet hers, he expects bloodshed to follow."

- Legends & Lore pg. 111


I don't know about the rest of you but to me this seems to preclude any possibility of party cohesion! 8O

There are also problems with a party that contains a cleric of a god of peace or healing along with a cleric of a god of combat, for example. And even in "softer" cases, consider:

"The cleric should miss no opportunity to explain and show to others, through both word and deed, the truth and rightness of his or her religion."

- Deities & Demigods, pg. 66

"First and foremost among a priest's many obligations is the duty to work towards his deity's goals. Another important duty is the obligation to expand the influence of his faith."

- Legends & Lore pg. 10

I can see plenty of situations in which the party clerics would be fighting constantly. Clerics of opposing ideas (god of peace vs. god of war, god of healing vs. god of death, god of morning vs. god of night, etc.), of rival gods (Athena vs. Ares), of opposing alignments (Thor - CG vs. Loki - CE), and so on, would really not get along well within the party, now would they? A druid would probably get along with any cleric, as he is neutral and would not pick sides. But two clerics?

Even if there were a cleric of a god of healing and a cleric of a god of peace for example - there would be no real reason that they wouldn't get along. Except that each one is by necessity going to try to promote his or her god above the god of the other cleric. If both clerics can heal, who is going to be the one to heal the party and then extol the virtues of worshiping his god to the other party members after a rough combat in the hopes of gaining converts? There's the rivalry. Even between gods of similar or same alignment, each will wish to advance his portfolio.

So, what problems have others had with mixed clerics in a party?

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garhkal
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#2 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:23 am

Yes i have. Several times.. In my home realm, one goddess i have, Laranni finds Bows 'cowards weapons', and her priests are ordered to break any when they find them.. Another priest in the group was of the Elven god Solinor Thellandria (sp), the god of archery.. And they were bickering back and fourth.. IF one blessed the group, the OTHER wouldn't do any buffing. If one was damaged, the other would tell them "Heal thyself". And in one treasure horde, there was a +2 magic bow, and the Larannian priest found it first, Turned to the other priest, and SNAPPED the bow, singing praises to Laranni at the same time.. Almost got into a fistycuff (IN Character)..

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Stik
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#3 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:30 am

PCs of vastly different alignments can form a functional party, and in doing so can create some enjoyable opportunities for roleplaying.
But having players who deliberately choose PC clerics that will antagonize each other, is probably more much trouble than it's worth.
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Halaster-Blackcloak
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#4 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:30 pm

Stik, I agree. A little rivalry within the party and some inter-party friction makes for fun adventures. But again, say the players choose their characters without any consultation between them and end up with a cleric of Athena and another of Ares. That's gonna be a problem for sure. Luckily, most of my campaigns have consisted of groups of friends, so they tend to plan out their characters together to some degree. But that's not always the case. When it comes to clerics, I can see te situation getting a it tense. But I'm wondering what others have experienced with it. I rarely have two clerics in a party - usually someone is choosing a druid.

Garhkal wrote:

Yes i have. Several times.. In my home realm, one goddess i have, Laranni finds Bows 'cowards weapons', and her priests are ordered to break any when they find them.. Another priest in the group was of the Elven god Solinor Thellandria (sp), the god of archery.. And they were bickering back and fourth.. IF one blessed the group, the OTHER wouldn't do any buffing. If one was damaged, the other would tell them "Heal thyself". And in one treasure horde, there was a +2 magic bow, and the Larannian priest found it first, Turned to the other priest, and SNAPPED the bow, singing praises to Laranni at the same time.. Almost got into a fistycuff (IN Character)..


LMAO! Oh that would have been fun to watch! :lol:

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garhkal
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#5 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:53 pm

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:Stik, I agree. A little rivalry within the party and some inter-party friction makes for fun adventures. But again, say the players choose their characters without any consultation between them and end up with a cleric of Athena and another of Ares. That's gonna be a problem for sure. Luckily, most of my campaigns have consisted of groups of friends, so they tend to plan out their characters together to some degree. But that's not always the case. When it comes to clerics, I can see te situation getting a it tense. But I'm wondering what others have experienced with it. I rarely have two clerics in a party - usually someone is choosing a druid.


True, but even then you could have conflict, if you have one priest, and one druid.. Especially if that priesthood is one more concerned with advancing humanity's cause..

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:Garhkal wrote:

Yes i have. Several times.. In my home realm, one goddess i have, Laranni finds Bows 'cowards weapons', and her priests are ordered to break any when they find them.. Another priest in the group was of the Elven god Solinor Thellandria (sp), the god of archery.. And they were bickering back and fourth.. IF one blessed the group, the OTHER wouldn't do any buffing. If one was damaged, the other would tell them "Heal thyself". And in one treasure horde, there was a +2 magic bow, and the Larannian priest found it first, Turned to the other priest, and SNAPPED the bow, singing praises to Laranni at the same time.. Almost got into a fistycuff (IN Character)..


LMAO! Oh that would have been fun to watch! :lol:


The other players were like WTF.. BUT managed to calm things down.. BUT 3 game sessions later, it didn't really matter, as BOTH priests and one of the 2 mages (one was a mage thief the other a fighter-mage, who was the one who died), Rumbled into a patrol of Trolls (this group was averaging 4-6th level).. As those 2, the f/m and one of their 2 other straight fighters all got killed... The other fighter, their straight thief and the mage thief all fled..
Those 2 players who's priests died, made replacements up, but both decided to be smart and made complimentary clerics.. BOTH dwarven, one of Clangeddin the other of Moradin.

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Halaster-Blackcloak
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#6 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:09 am

Garhkal wrote:

True, but even then you could have conflict, if you have one priest, and one druid.. Especially if that priesthood is one more concerned with advancing humanity's cause..


I agree. I'm just saying that a druid would be in most cases a lot more tolerant to a cleric than another cleric, unless that cleric worships a god antithetical to nature (fire maybe?). But when you have clerics of a competing god, oh boy are sparks gonna fly! I think, though, that in most cases the PCs could work things out without having too much inter-party strife (some is always good in my book).

But clerics of very opposite gods, I would say that would end up as badly as having an assassin and a paladin on the same team. I don't see it working out.

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garhkal
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#7 » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:37 pm

Bringing this back up.


Sa you DID have it where priests of X god, are limited on whom they could cast spells on (such as the always mentioned Ares/Athena Spats). BUT a PC priest decides to ignore that, and casts the spell anyway, on his "Friend the fellow PC"...

What punishment(s) should arise?

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Halaster-Blackcloak
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#8 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:24 am

That would depend on the circumstances I suppose.

If the recipient is of similar alignment and/or working towards a cause that the cleric's god approves of (or better yet endorses/oversees the portfolio of), then perhaps a minor punishment for the cleric. If the cleric cast it on someone absolutely forbidden, say a forbidden rival of powerful enmity (a cleric of Athena casting it for a worshiper of Ares), then that would be a severe transgression and would probably result in loss of spells entirely, maybe worse, until atonement is made.

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garhkal
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#9 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:24 pm

Would/could there be any punishments on the receiver of the spell?

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Halaster-Blackcloak
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#10 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:55 pm

I'd say no, other than perhaps the god denying the spell working or taking effect on the recipient.

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garhkal
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#11 » Thu May 30, 2019 11:34 pm

bringing this back up with a related question.. Has anyone who made their OWN gods up, ever actually gone through and listed out who/what a priest OF each god, can cast on followers of the other gods?
IE:
God ABC, is favored to god BBC, but still won't allow his priest to cast more than 5th level spells on the followers of BBC, while they are in a tenuous neutrality towards followers of ZZtop, so in the rare cases they adventure together, are limited to only casting 1st and 2nd level spells of a healing nature on followers of that god..

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Lukafio
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Re: Cleric vs. Cleric - Party Discord?

Post#12 » Fri May 31, 2019 11:40 pm

I did; ... a very long time ago.

Most first level spells were open to everyone. Then as the level of the spells increased they became more limiting/restrictive. The top tier level spells could on be cast by clerics of that deity. That is just a general gist. This was all around the time 2E was being introduced.
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