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Defeating the sleep spell.

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:41 pm
by garhkal
Over on DF there's a humdinger of a thread currently, going on about "is sleep overpowered', and the discussion morphed into "is it metagaming to allow someone to buy up dozens of piglets, or carry 50+ rats with them, even if not a caster, so all the animals fall asleep first, before their character would..

First off, would you even LET SOMEONE (not a caster), even know that "hey the sleep spell affects the lowest HD before the higher ones"..?
If so, would you let someone waltz into a dungeon, with 30+ half hd/quarter hd, farm animals, just because?

Re: Defeating the sleep spell.

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:38 pm
by Lukafio
Sure why not let them meta game it. ... and then all the lower HD critters they are carrying die in the first 25 feet due to a toxin in the air. PC survived it because of their more robust health and higher HD.

If you couldn't tell, I'm against the idea. I would grill the player and ask them where the character learned this? Also why so many critters. One or two as 'pets' I could let by but there has to be a line. :pos: :pop:

Re: Defeating the sleep spell.

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:29 pm
by RPG Dinosaur
garhkal wrote: "is it metagaming to allow someone to buy up dozens of piglets, or carry 50+ rats with them, even if not a caster, so all the animals fall asleep first, before their character would

Not only would I not allow it because it is metagaming, but the logistics of carrying around dozens of piglets or 50+rats is simply unfeasible for an adventurer. It's ridiculous! What is the PC going to do, have twelve piglets on leashes and stick the other twelve in his/her backpack? Oh yeah, that's going to make for some quiet movement in a dungeon! And rats would eventually chew their way through any pack or pouch. Plus, the PC would have to figure in the supplies and time to feed these animals.

Re: Defeating the sleep spell.

Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:00 am
by Marcus
I would tell the player I have no interest in helping to develop a character who would live their life (searching for, buying, caring for all of these animals) around preparing for a single spell. It is entirely metagaming.

Re: Defeating the sleep spell.

Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:31 pm
by Billy_Buttcheese
I would require the player to describe for me, in detail and in writing, how he/she planned to care for/maintain such a traveling circus. Moreover, I would ask for input from all the other players asking how they feel about the player having this freak show in among the group. The noise, smell, and especially the water/food requirements. How they would handle dealing with traps (i.e., pits, gas, etc.) I'm pretty certain it wouldn't take very long before even the player would get weary of dealing with the situation and then just have a pig roast to celebrate. Damn, where do people come up with this stuff? :roll:

Re: Defeating the sleep spell.

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:31 am
by Crimson-Kobold
At this point, I think the player in question should take a step back, maybe go to the washroom, splash some water on their face, then slap themselves for being a ridiculous player.

This is taking the meta of the game to an absurd level, the question should be asked: "Why are you playing this game?"

We have one such player in the online groups I play in. He has to be told by the DM on a regular basis that, no, that's not how it's gonna work. He tries to bring in irl logic into a decidedly vague and abstract rulesystem, and it simply doesn't work. Same thing here. Yeah, rules as written, surrounding yourself with critters is a means to circumvent the sleep spell.

But it requires a lot of meta knowledge. First, you need to know that an enemy even has the spell. Then, you need to suspect they will even cast it. All the while, you have to control this mass of animals.

Look, having a bunch of lower HD critters around you to limit sleeps effectiveness is clever. But use something like summon animal or something to bring in those lower HD critters. This is pure metagaming, and decidedly not in the spirit of the game.

In short, a player suggests this to me? I'd just say "nah.". I wouldn't even ask them to justify how they do it. There will always be a level of risk in the game, and trying to completely eliminate it then acting smug about it because of your use of metaknowledge? Nah. Your character doesn't know that stuff, wouldn't even think about such a tactic. It's not a reasonable approach, IMO. Heavy handed? Maybe. But I know my guys will try to get away with some stupid ass stuff, and I gotta shoot some of that down. "Nah. You don't do that. Because it's stupid."

Re: Defeating the sleep spell.

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:22 am
by Billy_Buttcheese
While your method would certainly solve the immediate problem, I prefer a less heavy-handed approach to a solution. Yes, the idea is clearly meta-gaming, stupid and utterly ridiculous, but to call it that to the player's face might quash any future "outside the box" thinking/problem solving on their part. I encourage my players to be creative when dealing with situations like this. Which is why, I believe, it would be far better for all if the player came to that conclusion by themselves, or maybe through peer-pressure, than just arbitrarily come down from on high and call the player out for being an ass-hat. I agree, sometimes the "cuz I'm the DM and I sez so" method is needed but in this case, I believe simple logic would be a better problem solver than essentially calling the player stupid and it wouldn't discourage them from developing other ideas/solutions in the future. Just my opinion, whatever works best for you...