Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

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Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:43 am

This has always bothered me, and I used to know "an" answer, if not "the" answer. Starting in 1E and carrying into 2E, liches are said to be "wizards or priests of at least 18th level". And yet they only had 11 HD. That sorta screws up the level-to-HD general ratio. So that means they go from having 10d4 + 8 hp (or on average 33 hp) to having 11 HD (8 sided) for an average of 49.5 hp. And what about liches that start out as 20th level or 25th level wizards or priests? Do they gain more HD, or are liches always stuck at 11HD? I swear I remember something about this, but not where I read it.
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby garhkal » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:13 am

I honestly never understood WHY something that had to be an 18th level caster, was only ever 11hd.. Would have made sense MORE to have had their HP based on whether they were a mage or cleric in their life...
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:30 am

Yeah, I always preferred the idea that the wizard or priest was just that - a wizard or a priest. He attains an undead state and is now known as a lich, which gives him other powers. I never liked the idea that the wizard or priest becomes a monster which converts him to HD instead of levels, while still using levels for casting ability. and now that you brought up priests, I'm thinking it's really unfair to them (the process of becoming a lich). The wizard goes from 10d4 + 8 hp (or on average 33 hp) to having 11 HD (8 sided) for an average of 49.5 hp...a gain of 16.5 hp. But the priest goes from 9d8 + 4 hp (or on average 44.5hp) to having 11 HD (8 sided) for an average of 49.5 hp...a gain of only 5 hp. The wizard gains 3 times as many hp for becoming a lich.

I get the idea that the wizard or priest is no longer a wizard or priest, but a type of undead and therefore uses HD. But it's kinda clumsy.
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby lanir » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:51 am

The write-ups differ a bit. The only one that refers to them as "wizards or priests of at least 18th level" is the 2e monstrous compendium. The 1e monster manual has them as magic-user or magic-user/priests who are "at least 18th level of magic-use" and the 2e monstrous manual doesn't mention priests at all and just has them as at least 18th level wizards.

If you want a direct relationship from the hit dice to the class levels involved what you're looking for is more of a 3e monster template thing.
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby garhkal » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:57 pm

How's about making it that the shift to undeath, converts their existing HD to monster type, 1 PER level.. So both mages and priests get a HP boost!
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:14 am

Lanir wrote:

The write-ups differ a bit. The only one that refers to them as "wizards or priests of at least 18th level" is the 2e monstrous compendium. The 1e monster manual has them as magic-user or magic-user/priests who are "at least 18th level of magic-use" and the 2e monstrous manual doesn't mention priests at all and just has them as at least 18th level wizards.


Yeah, we covered that. You just love to reiterate the obvious in order to have 2 cents to put in, don't you? :roll:

If you want a direct relationship from the hit dice to the class levels involved what you're looking for is more of a 3e monster template thing.


No, what I'm looking for is not some lame 3etard crap from that failed edition.
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:31 am

Garhkal wrote:

How's about making it that the shift to undeath, converts their existing HD to monster type, 1 PER level.. So both mages and priests get a HP boost!


Are you saying convert their existing levels to HD? In other words, an 18th level wizard becomes an 18 HD lich? I like the idea to a degree, but then when you have wizards of 20th or 25th level becoming liches, you have liches with 20-25 HD, which is crazy powerful because they have almost as many HD as great wyrm red dragons. 8O

That seems a bit much to me.

I remember a discussion long, long ago, and I can't remember if it was at WotC, or the old BIP site, or DF, or where, but someone mentioned a rule that says liches no longer gain levels once they become liches. In other words, an 18th level wizard who becomes a lich will never reach 19th level. Not sure where they got that, it's not even in the Van Richten's Guide to Liches, much less any core source.

In that same lost conversation, the argument came up that the transformation from NPC/PC status to monster status isn't always 100% perfect, and that the lich has more hp anyway (due to using a d8 for HD/hp), so it's a fair trade off. I seem to remember once personally going with the wizard who becomes a lich starting at 11HD, but for every level gained as a wizard he gains a HD as a lich. So if an 18th level wizard became a lich (11HD), then gained a level as a wizard (i.e. he studied long enough to gain 19th level), then he would be considered a 12 HD lich with the casting ability of a 19th level wizard.

God I hope that makes sense! These 16-18 hour days better end soon! I'm not even sure of what I just wrote! :?
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby lanir » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:51 am

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:Yeah, we covered that.


No, you really didn't. What they are before they turn into a lich differs quite a bit depending on which source you use.

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:No, what I'm looking for is not some lame 3etard crap from that failed edition.


It's the closest thing in D&D to it. Some of this conversation is just reinventing the same idea. Take one creature to start with, perform some light math and end up with something heavily based upon but not the same as the creature you started with. I can't help it if you foam at the mouth and get stupid over that. It's a pretty simple concept.

The write-up has liches as "11+" hit dice so what you guys are talking about is just part of the design. The only weird part, as already mentioned, is 11 x d8 hit dice versus 18th level mage is not a direct comparison. With only 11hd and average hp rolls they aren't going to last very long if a good sized group gets in melee range of them. And their own strengths are mostly not based on THAC0 so you're probably fine to pump their hit dice up to make them a challenge. It'll keep any archers or mages from nuking them before the fighters get done mowing down the liches henchmen. You aren't really worried about game balance for liches as PCs anyway, are you? Because assuming you're not, I think those would be the primary concerns.

If you want them to be directly proportional you can just do Wizard level x 0.6 = lich hit dice. Then you get something very much like the 18th level wizard to 11hd monster transformation. That doesn't take into account high levels being different for PCs but it should work out fine.
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby garhkal » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:29 pm

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:Garhkal wrote:

How's about making it that the shift to undeath, converts their existing HD to monster type, 1 PER level.. So both mages and priests get a HP boost!


Are you saying convert their existing levels to HD? In other words, an 18th level wizard becomes an 18 HD lich? I like the idea to a degree, but then when you have wizards of 20th or 25th level becoming liches, you have liches with 20-25 HD, which is crazy powerful because they have almost as many HD as great wyrm red dragons. 8O


Lich's are supposed to be mega powerful..
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:33 pm

Lanir wrote:

No, you really didn't. What they are before they turn into a lich differs quite a bit depending on which source you use.


Uh...yes. I did. When I discuss these issues, I assume I am discussing them with people who actually have experience with the game and who therefore "get it", as opposed to dabblers who always feel the need to go look up rules in order to make themselves look like they have a clue. :roll: Anyone who's played the game "gets it". Liches are 18th level wizards or priests who become undead. The fact that you always feel the need to reiterate irrelevant minutia in the discussion when everyone else gets it tells me a lot.

It's the closest thing in D&D to it. Some of this conversation is just reinventing the same idea. Take one creature to start with, perform some light math and end up with something heavily based upon but not the same as the creature you started with. I can't help it if you foam at the mouth and get stupid over that. It's a pretty simple concept.


It's not "foaming at the mouth" to repeat to you that I find 3E to be ridiculously stupid. You just don't seem to remember or "get" anything. I can't heal you of that affliction. I'm not a miracle worker.

As for the other statement, I'm not doing a 3E conversion. I'm looking at it from an AD&D perspective, as usual.


The write-up has liches as "11+" hit dice so what you guys are talking about is just part of the design. The only weird part, as already mentioned, is 11 x d8 hit dice versus 18th level mage is not a direct comparison.


Yes, we're discussing the reasoning behind the mechanics. In other words, the reason why a wizard of 18th level will become a monster with only 11 HD. And yes, I talked about it not being a direct comparison. You love to re-state what others have already stated as if you had thought of it.

With only 11hd and average hp rolls they aren't going to last very long if a good sized group gets in melee range of them.


Clearly you've never DM'ed a lich opponent. :roll:

You aren't really worried about game balance for liches as PCs anyway, are you? Because assuming you're not, I think those would be the primary concerns.


There's always that one kid in the class who just doesn't get it, and it's painful to watch. No, I'm not "worried about game balance". Poor DMs worry about that, which is why they convert to 3E and modern games. I'm merely looking at the mechanic of why they come back as liches with so many fewer HD than they had levels and trying to recall points from a discussion on the matter made long ago.

If you want them to be directly proportional you can just do Wizard level x 0.6 = lich hit dice. Then you get something very much like the 18th level wizard to 11hd monster transformation. That doesn't take into account high levels being different for PCs but it should work out fine.


Again, that has nothing to do with my post. I'm not concerned with making them "directly proportional". Here we go again - a ride on the Clueless Railroad. :roll:
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:44 pm

Garhkal wrote:

Lich's are supposed to be mega powerful..


True, and I do like to keep them as one of the tougher opponents a party can face, much like dragons and other powerful beings. But even so, 25 HD seems a bit much for a skeletal wizard. 8O Especially when they have so much magical power and protection at their fingertips. It's just hard to think of a lich being able to take as much physical damage as a great wyrm red dragon.

But then I've always played liches similar to how they're presented in Van Richten' Guide to Liches (and even more so after I bought that awesome resource book!). The first problem for the PCs is discovering that there is a lich behind the scenes causing problems, then finding his lair, then finding a way to survive invading his lair, and then finally how to defeat him once they meet him.

I really wish I could find that old discussion, because someone supposedly cited a source that said liches cannot gain higher levels as spellcasters once they become liches, though I have no idea where they found that because it's nowhere I can recall. There were a lot of good points made about the level-to-HD issue too. I wonder if I saved it as an email somewhere? Hmmm. :?
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby lanir » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:38 pm

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:Uh...yes. I did. When I discuss these issues, I assume I am discussing them with people who actually have experience with the game...

... lots of blah, blah, blah....

Again, that has nothing to do with my post. I'm not concerned with making them "directly proportional". Here we go again - a ride on the Clueless Railroad. :roll:


Okay, so you're a bitter old fool. I can't fix that but was there a point in your reply somewhere I was supposed to get beyond that?

You complain about being told things you know but if I don't lay out every single detail for you like beadcrumbs, you simply lack the ability to follow along. It's just easier to provide the information I'm working from rather than let you guess what my references are because you're incapable of managing that. And that's fine, you just don't understand me. Chalk it up to me not being a carbon copy of you. It doesn't justify being a rude little troll but whatever, maybe you can't help that either. I wish you'd act like an adult and get over it but I'll just ignore it for now.

As far as the lich conversation goes, your original post seemed to miss the plus in the "11+" hit dice they have so I mentioned it. You have 11 as too low and 25 as too high. The proportional idea would have a 25th level mage only coming out to 15 hit dice. If you want to talk about that, which direction does that fail in for you? And is there a particular level range of mage you're looking to model?

My guess is "mage level - 7 = lich hit dice" will be what you're looking for with maybe a cap at the top end. But it's just a guess.
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:06 am

Lanir whined:

Okay, so you're a bitter old fool. I can't fix that but was there a point in your reply somewhere I was supposed to get beyond that?


Actually, no. You were supposed to just not comment in the first place. You're clueless. You don't have any experience in the system. Therefore you're not entitled to an opinion. And you're definitely not in any way qualified to debate the time of day with me.

You complain about being told things you know but if I don't lay out every single detail for you like beadcrumbs, you simply lack the ability to follow along


The problem is your exalted opinion of yourself. You suck as a DM, you suck at debating, and yet you think you're entitled to an opinion. You try to "correct" people who know infinitely more than you about the game and you make insane assumptions. You're also an intellectual coward who tucked tail and ran from the last "debate" :roll: we had, because you couldn't address simple points. And what the hell are "beadcrumbs"? Learn how to spell. You can't even spell words using spell-checker for God's sake!

It's just easier to provide the information I'm working from rather than let you guess what my references are because you're incapable of managing that. And that's fine, you just don't understand me.


I do understand you. You're an idiot. Plain and simple. Nobody who understands the game needs to inject himself into the conversation to reiterate a point that's already understood. Nobody who understands the game feels the need to constantly "correct" someone who knows more than he does. You're the type of blathering idiot who stands up in a physics class and declares to the teacher: "Electrons have a negative charge!" as if you've just had a breakthrough in physics, while the teacher stares at you in disbelief and the other students laugh. You're an ass-clown.

Chalk it up to me not being a carbon copy of you.


Clearly! I'm intelligent, you're a moron. At least you got that part right.

It doesn't justify being a rude little troll but whatever, maybe you can't help that either. I wish you'd act like an adult and get over it but I'll just ignore it for now.


To quote one of my all time favorite 80's movies:

"Sweets...you couldn't ignore me if you tried."

It is ironic though that a clueless moron - who has no understanding of or experience with the game - will call someone else a troll when he himself is the one trolling.

As far as the lich conversation goes, your original post seemed to miss the plus in the "11+" hit dice they have so I mentioned it.


It's not missing anything. You just don't get it. You need everything spelled out for you in excruciating detail, only to still not understand it. I don't feel the need to dumb down my posts and write novels of minutia just so you can try to keep up. You always mistakenly believe that if a person short-hands something for brevity and an insignificant detail is not spelled out in exact, excruciating detail, that person doesn't know the rule and so you look it up and "come to the rescue". :roll: It's a really unpleasant turn off for most people. You're just too damned stupid to realize that. You're the only person here who does that. Nobody else does that to anyone else.

You have 11 as too low and 25 as too high. The proportional idea would have a 25th level mage only coming out to 15 hit dice. If you want to talk about that, which direction does that fail in for you? And is there a particular level range of mage you're looking to model?


The fact that you're asking that question shows me that you're too stupid to understand what I'm talking about. There goes that reading comprehension problem of yours again! Clearly you didn't take my kind and generous advice of attending a reading comprehension class when last I schooled you. Even when I tell you what I am and am not actually talking about, you get confused. You're a waking miracle of stupidity.

My guess is "mage level - 7 = lich hit dice" will be what you're looking for with maybe a cap at the top end. But it's just a guess.


In order to take a guess at something, you first need to understand the topic. Your "guess" (along with all the other drivel in your first post) proves to me you do not understand, even after I explained it to you dumbed-down. Now go run along and take that reading comprehension class. If I have to keep schooling you, I'm going to have to start charging you for the privilege on principle alone.
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby lanir » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:59 am

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:You were supposed to just not comment in the first place. ... Therefore you're not entitled to an opinion.


I think you missed something. It's a forum. That's what they're for. I'm hardly going to stop talking simply because you feel like being a troll. If you want to get rid of me it's fairly easy. Just go hit that exclamation point in the triangle and report my post. Make a case for why I shouldn't be here. You might want to make it a bit more coherent than this rambling tirade though. But go ahead, give it a shot. If you've been here awhile and they haven't gotten tired of your rants yet then someone probably thinks you contribute something valuable to the community. It would probably outweigh anything I've done.

But if you can't make that work then suck it up and get over it. I have no problem acting polite around you, whatever I think of you personally. When you aren't ranting you occasionally have or regurgitate useful ideas. I don't have to think you're a great guy to run with them. You just need to get over this "get off my lawn" nonsense and we'll get along fine.

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:And what about liches that start out as 20th level or 25th level wizards or priests? Do they gain more HD, or are liches always stuck at 11HD?


That quote above is from your original post. It's where you don't seem to have noticed that they were never limited to 11HD to begin with. It's fine if you meant something else, I was just going off of what you said.

Google translate doesn't have a setting for cranky old fart so it's a good thing I understand it anyway. The rest of your reply is a bit garbled in translation. You seem to be saying you're not talking about hit dice scaling for the transition from mage to lich. That certainly seems to be what Garkhal and you are talking about. You want a range that feels right to you for what power level you want them to be at and a good justification for it so it doesn't feel like picking a number out of a hat. I just focused on the number first because your original problem was with them being 11HD. I don't know what number sounds right to you and the justification would change along with the number.

If you prefer to approach it from the justification first or talk about some other detail about liches I'm game. If you'd rather rant instead, go ahead. It's kind of rude to pull that sort of bait and switch but it's your topic. Blow it up if you want. :pop:
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Re: Lich HD - Why 11 HD?

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:46 pm

Lanir, being glutton for punishment, wrote:

I think you missed something. It's a forum. That's what they're for. I'm hardly going to stop talking simply because you feel like being a troll.


Son, you are so woefully clueless, it astounds me. Like I said, if I have to keep schooling you like this I'm just gonna have to start charging you. As usual, you just don't get it. You take everything in a literal yet twisted way. Do you even understand what "you're not entitled to an opinion" means in conversational English? Is English a distant second language for you? Nobody is telling you that you can't post here, only that you're not entitled to an opinion. But instead of trying to explain that to you in terms you can understand - which would be difficult because I don't speak Retardese - I'll leave it for you to consider as a Zen koan. Go clear you mind and maybe, just maybe, the answer will come to you.

If you want to get rid of me it's fairly easy. Just go hit that exclamation point in the triangle and report my post. Make a case for why I shouldn't be here. You might want to make it a bit more coherent than this rambling tirade though. But go ahead, give it a shot. If you've been here awhile and they haven't gotten tired of your rants yet then someone probably thinks you contribute something valuable to the community. It would probably outweigh anything I've done.


You have me confused with one of the spineless twits at Dragonsfoot. I don't run whining to moderators saying: "Boo hoo, he hurt my precious feelings, go ban him!". :roll: Compared to most of the online battles I've been in, you're a cakewalk. And why would I want to get rid of someone who is only mildly less annoying than a gnat, when instead I can enjoy your almost-witty retorts? Truly, your cluelessness is on a level rarely seen. It's somewhat amusing, in a sadistic manner. But since you're a masochist, we work well together! :lol:

But if you can't make that work then suck it up and get over it. I have no problem acting polite around you, whatever I think of you personally. When you aren't ranting you occasionally have or regurgitate useful ideas. I don't have to think you're a great guy to run with them. You just need to get over this "get off my lawn" nonsense and we'll get along fine.


I never said "get off my lawn", figuratively speaking. I said you weren't entitled to a opinion. That doesn't mean you cannot post an opinion, only that you're not entitled to one. I know you won't understand that, and it will probably trigger another whiny response, but that's ok. As I said, use it as a Zen koan. It's one thing if I have to keep schooling you, that I should charge for. But with a Zen koan, you're doing all the work, so I won't charge you for that.

That quote above is from your original post. It's where you don't seem to have noticed that they were never limited to 11HD to begin with. It's fine if you meant something else, I was just going off of what you said.


No son, I did not, after 35+ years of gaming and having read the lich entry(ies) probably hundreds of times, miss the "+" sign. As I said, you think you know more than you do, and you don't understand the shorthand of those more knowledgeable than you. Which basically means anyone who:

1. Has ever actually played 1E
2. Has ever actually played in any game beyond 5th level
3. Has ever actually bothered to read and understand the game rules
4. Has never accused the game designers of lying to him so badly that he's "screwed no matter what he does"
5. Doesn't think the wizard class is "broken"
6. Doesn't think that alignment is an "utterly meaningless artificial construct"
7. Doesn't think AD&D has "too many stats"
8. Doesn't believe that level drain "removes memories of past lives"
9. Doesn't believe only liches or vampires retain memories of their previous lives (i.e. their lives before becoming undead)
10. Doesn't repeatedly engage in straw-man arguments to cover their lack of understanding of the game rules

:roll:

I could go on and on...but I think you get the point. Then again... :roll:

Google translate doesn't have a setting for cranky old fart so it's a good thing I understand it anyway.


Well, I guess you suck at using Google translate too! I thought I was a "bitter old fool", not a "cranky old fart". Maybe Google translate has a setting for the former. If not, you might also want to try translating it from:

"Nasty son-of-a-bitch"
"Cantankerous prick"
"Wise-ass know-it-all"
"Sadistic bastard"

Surely one of those will translate and I'm sure I can fit any of those categories. But if you really want an accurate translation, try the search terms:

"Experienced, knowledgeable DM"

That one fits me best.

The rest of your reply is a bit garbled in translation


No, it's only garbled in your mind because you don't understand the game.

You seem to be saying you're not talking about hit dice scaling for the transition from mage to lich. That certainly seems to be what Garkhal and you are talking about.


Yes, that is to some degree one aspect of what is being discussed. But definitely not in the manner you seem to believe.

You want a range that feels right to you for what power level you want them to be at and a good justification for it so it doesn't feel like picking a number out of a hat.


BUZZZZ! No, sorry, you lose. And there you got me all excited and I thought you were catching a clue with your previous statement. No, that's not what I "want". :roll:

Like I said, you just don't get it. Stop trying, I'm worried you might over-tax your brain trying.

I just focused on the number first because your original problem was with them being 11HD. I don't know what number sounds right to you and the justification would change along with the number.


Like I said, you just don't get it. Trying to explain it to you is sorta pointless because, well...you just don't get it. :roll:

If you prefer to approach it from the justification first or talk about some other detail about liches I'm game. If you'd rather rant instead, go ahead. It's kind of rude to pull that sort of bait and switch but it's your topic. Blow it up if you want


You really should go get some experience in the game and brush up on the rules first, before throwing your hat into the ring. You're so desperate for your uninformed opinions on daddy's game to have relevance that it's almost sad. Almost. :roll:
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