Creation of magical items is debilitating

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Re: Creation of magical items is debilitating

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:50 am

Garhkal wrote:

First off Hal. I didn't SAY Energy draining. I said Ability score draining attacks. Like the Wis loss from being hit by Lamias. or the Str loss from shadows. Or the Int loss from brain eaters and Oblimax (memory moss).. There's others out there, and SOME of them are perm losses.


Arrrgghh! Either my eyes are going or my mind is going (must be my eyes - my mind got lost long ago! :lol: ), because I swear I saw the words "level drain" when you clearly wrote "ability drain".

:crazy:

And as for that tracking.. There's very little computing to worry about.. A little Prep work goes a long way. And we can do the same for mages.


With prep work, perhaps. But in the game it usually just happens suddenly. From experience, it's always slowed down the game dramatically because there are so many things that need to be changed and recorded, and often not every player has a PHB handy, so it gets passed around and takes time. I'd have to say, honestly, I've never found anything to slow the game down as much as level drains.
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Re: Creation of magical items is debilitating

Postby garhkal » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:05 pm

But that's the thing. As i am trying to show.. IF they have it wrote out before hand in a nice column format manner. It should be EASY to say "Ok, Ztsarra the mage-thief has just been dropped from level 6/7 to 4/5 after the two attacks she got hit with." And the player of Ztsarra, just looks UP that line for when she was a 4m/5t, to see "ok at that level i was at 17 thac0, 13/12/15/14/14 for saves, i just lost the following three spells i had acqured at 5th and 6th level, and am back down to 27hp maximum... OK lets continue"
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Re: Creation of magical items is debilitating

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:23 am

Ah, I see what you mean! That would definitely help. You'd have to assume level drains will happen, but I think that could be handy to have! The one major problem though, is the issue of spells. When a PC loses levels, how does one determine which spells are lost? For example, a wizard drained from 12th level to 11th level loses his one 6th level spell, so that's easy. But he also loses one each of his four fourth- and fifth-level spells, so those have to be determined - either randomly rolled or picked. Then there are NWPs and ranger/paladin spellcasting, etc. Seems like even with shortcuts, it's still going to be time consuming.
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Re: Creation of magical items is debilitating

Postby garhkal » Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:52 pm

I've seen some DMs who randomly roll (or have the player) roll for what spell they lose. BUT i prefer doing it where you lose the most recent one you learned.. Looking in the 1e DMG there is no mention of what spells they are supposed to lose, even on page 119 where you have the ONLY mentioning i can find for 1e, ON Energy draining attacks..
BUT it also says there, the DM is encouraged to have players write down what they earned at each level, so its easy to see what htey lose when they get drained.. Though the example they are going for is specifically for the HP issue..

So in Ztsarra the mage-thief's case, when she was 4/5, as she progressed to L5/5, she learned one new 2nd level spell (lets say Stinking cloud) and one 3rd level (lets say dispel magic), and at 6/6 she learned another 3rd level spell (lets say lightning bolt)..

Now she's been drained back down to 4/5, she can easil see which spells she lost.. Stinking cloud, dispel magic and lightning bolt..
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Re: Creation of magical items is debilitating

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:49 pm

Yeah, that's probably the only good work around for it. I like that! The players may complain about excessive record keeping (my players are generally good about it, but really aren't keen on adding any more record keeping "duties"). But really, it's in their best interest.
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Re: Creation of magical items is debilitating

Postby Billy_Buttcheese » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:37 pm

Halaster-Blackcloak wrote:This is one of those juicy tidbits that rarely comes into play. In the 1E DMG, pg. 118, it specifies that creating magical items (other than scrolls and potions) is:

"...so debilitating as to necessitate the maker rest for one day for each 100 gp of the item's experience point value, i.e. one with a 2,000 experience point value means 20 days of complete rest. During this period, the character can do nothing except eat, rest, undertake mild exercise, and sleep - all in relative isolation."

I think there's a typo in there, because generally the gp value of an item is 5x the ep value - a ring of feather falling, for example, is worth 5,000 gp, with a 1,000 ep value. So I think the rule is meant to read:

"...so debilitating as to necessitate the maker rest for one day for each 100 ep of the item's experience point value, i.e. one with a 2,000 experience point value means 20 days of complete rest. During this period, the character can do nothing except eat, rest, undertake mild exercise, and sleep - all in relative isolation."

In any case, the latter is how the given example works.

Now, looking at some of those items...wow! Creating a staff of power (12,000 ep) results in a need of 120 days of rest (4 months)! 8O

A good reason why PCs don't generally create a lot of high powered magic items I guess!


Another great topic, Mr. Blackcloak!

When I reread this in the DMG, I was forced to conclude that magic item creation is something that EGG wanted kept essentially "behind the curtain". The creation of magic items should be a time consuming and expensive undertaking, not to be laughed off on a whim. Typically, in my many years of playing and DMing, I have come across very few players that were willing to undergo the strict measures necessary for the process, especially when they learn of the permanent point loss that others have already pointed out here.

My campaigns have always been somewhat low magic in nature. I'd like to think not so much that players become discouraged but enough that when they do find something magical, they are mighty pleased and particularly protective of those items.

But as for the creation of them, most don't want to lose the time away from adventuring waiting for the seemingly interminable rest periods to end. Debilitating is a great word for it and I believe the process doesn't really need to be "fixed".
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Re: Creation of magical items is debilitating

Postby Halaster-Blackcloak » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:37 pm

Billy_Buttcheese wrote:

Another great topic, Mr. Blackcloak!


Thanks! :)

When I reread this in the DMG, I was forced to conclude that magic item creation is something that EGG wanted kept essentially "behind the curtain". The creation of magic items should be a time consuming and expensive undertaking, not to be laughed off on a whim. Typically, in my many years of playing and DMing, I have come across very few players that were willing to undergo the strict measures necessary for the process, especially when they learn of the permanent point loss that others have already pointed out here.


I think it was a good idea to make magic item creation so difficult for the same reason most people don't have "magic shops" in their games. Why go adventuring to find wondrous magical items if you can simply go buy it at the store down the street, or whip them up in the laboratory in a few days?

My campaigns have always been somewhat low magic in nature. I'd like to think not so much that players become discouraged but enough that when they do find something magical, they are mighty pleased and particularly protective of those items.


Ive run both high and low magic campaigns and somewhere in-between. The longer I play, the more I drift closer to lower magic campaigns. As you said, not enough to discourage the players, but a little bit less is probably better than a little bit too much, on a sliding scale.

But as for the creation of them, most don't want to lose the time away from adventuring waiting for the seemingly interminable rest periods to end. Debilitating is a great word for it and I believe the process doesn't really need to be "fixed".


Agreed! I'm keeping it as it is!
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