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 Post subject: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:04 pm 
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This is a Private Thread for Justin Tyme. It will contain:
-Character sheets (maintained by the DM)
-Character creation details for any/all of Justin Tyme's characters
-Experiences separate from the party


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:04 pm 
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I am unfamiliar with unseenservant, but here are rolls with links:

http://www.unseenservant.com/default.as ... &what=sand
11

http://www.unseenservant.com/default.as ... &what=sand
11

http://www.unseenservant.com/default.as ... &what=sand
9

http://www.unseenservant.com/default.as ... &what=sand
8

http://www.unseenservant.com/default.as ... &what=sand
9

http://www.unseenservant.com/default.as ... &what=sand
8

That looks like 11, 11, 9, 9, 8, 8 = 56! Nice!


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Test rolling a macro

Input: [3d4][3d4][3d4][3d4][3d4][3d4]
Output: [3d4] = 11[3d4] = 9[3d4] = 8[3d4] = 11[3d4] = 7[3d4] = 7

http://www.unseenservant.com/default.as ... &what=sand

I just saw that I was to do it this way. 11, 9, 8, 11, 7, 7 = 53


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:14 pm 
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So, the rules thread has a campaign id [369] for use with unseen sercant.
first create a login for the site, then create a character name (you dont have to put any other character info in unseen servant) and assign the campaign id to that character. Otherwise tracking the rolls becomes impossible.

Since you're unfamiliar with Unseen servant, i'll accept the rolls in the post immediately above this. If you have questions or need help with unseen servant, let me know :)
And Welcome :)


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:01 am 
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If ypu're still having trouble with Unseen Servant, there is a step-by-step guide here: http://www.unseenservant.com/default.asp?do=guide


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:36 pm 
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roll bard HD [6d6] = 22, roll thief HD [2d6] = 5, roll cleric HD [1d8] = 4 ... I am going with a different roll set, but the results are the same essentially.


spellbook pages:
1st level [9d6] = 24 and 2nd level [5d6] = 17+5
spellbook 3rd [3d6] = 13+6 = 65 pages or 3250gp

Short List for 2nd level "bonus" spell: Deep Pockets, ESP, Forget, or Mirror Image
Short List for 3rd level "bonus" spell: Fly, Invisibility 10'r, Spectral Force, Wraithform

Followers: followers [4d6] = 12
Follow1 [1d100] = 93; F2 [1d100] = 11; F3 [1d100] = 90; F4 [1d100] = 85
F5 [1d100] = 2; F6 [1d100] = 19; F7[1d100] = 99; F8 [1d100] = 94
F9 [1d100] = 35; F10 [1d100] = 52; F11 [1d100] = 32; F12 [1d100] = 27

I am working on the character sheet here: Akila Shim'Tar


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:53 pm 
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I took a look at the sheet and notice a couple of things.

The xp doesnt exactly line up. When dual classing, it takes twice as much xp to reach an equal level of your 2nd class, and the same applies tp the 3rd over the 2nd:
as you have it listed now bard/thief/cleric
bard lvl 7: 40k xp
thief lvl 10: 160k +40k (thief up to lvl 7) = 200 mil
Cleric lvl 15: 1.575 mil +450k (cleric up to lvl 10) = 2.025 mil
=> 2.265 mil

Even cleric 14 would be 450k + 1.35 mil +240k => 2.04 mil

So you could either go bard/thief/cleric 7/10/13
or if you dropped thief to lvl 9 it would be 7/9/15
40k+40k+110k+225k+ =415k and 1.585 mil left would get you to cleric lvl 15


The second thing i noticed was a -lot- of nwps. Like, 21 or so.
the character only gets nwps for the first class that passes a level. For instance:
starting as bard he gets 3 +1 at lvl 4. his next comes at thief lvl 8, then his next at cleric lvl 9, then 12, then 15
so he would have 3+1+1+1+1+1 = 8 + his bonus from intelligence

weapon proficiencies would be similar:
starting as bard he gets 2 +1 at lvl 4, +1 at thief lvl 8, +1 at cleric lvl 12 => 6 wp

Riddlemaster kit would be fine, but the kit would have been abandoned when he dual-classed out of bard


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:11 pm 
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TristenC wrote:
I took a look at the sheet and notice a couple of things.

The xp doesnt exactly line up. When dual classing, it takes twice as much xp to reach an equal level of your 2nd class, and the same applies tp the 3rd over the 2nd:
as you have it listed now bard/thief/cleric

So you could either go bard/thief/cleric 7/10/13
or if you dropped thief to lvl 9 it would be 7/9/15
40k+40k+110k+225k+ =415k and 1.585 mil left would get you to cleric lvl 15


I realize that this is a 'house rule' as explained and is contrary to the RAW in PH, so I will do the latter and fix. b7/t9/c15

TristenC wrote:
The second thing i noticed was a -lot- of nwps. Like, 21 or so.
the character only gets nwps for the first class that passes a level. For instance:
starting as bard he gets 3 +1 at lvl 4. his next comes at thief lvl 8, then his next at cleric lvl 9, then 12, then 15
so he would have 3+1+1+1+1+1 = 8 + his bonus from intelligence

weapon proficiencies would be similar:
starting as bard he gets 2 +1 at lvl 4, +1 at thief lvl 8, +1 at cleric lvl 12 => 6 wp


According to RAW, I disagree. Here is cut/paste from Purple Worm re:restrictions of dual classing.

This is not to imply that a dual-class human forgets everything he knew before; he still has, at his fingertips, all the knowledge, abilities, and proficiencies of his old class. But if he uses any of his previous class's abilities during an encounter, he earns no experience for that encounter and only half experience for the adventure. The only values that can be carried over from the previous class without restriction are the character's Hit Dice and hit points. The character is penalized for using his old attack or saving throw numbers, weapons or armor that are now prohibited, and any special abilities of the old class that are not also abilities of the new class. (The character is trying to learn new ways to do things; by slipping back to his old methods, he has set back his learning in his new character class.)

In addition, the character earns no additional Hit Dice or hit points while advancing in his new class.
The restrictions in the previous two paragraphs last until the character reaches a higher level in his new class than his maximum level in any of his previous classes. At that point, both restrictions are dropped: the character gains the abilities of his previous classes without jeopardizing his experience points for the adventure, and he earns additional Hit Dice (those of his new class) and hit points for gaining experience levels in his new class.
Once these restrictions are lifted, the character must still abide by the restrictions of whichever class he is using at the moment. A dual-class fighter/mage, for example, cannot cast spells while wearing armor.


'Back in the day' when I played a lot at RPGA events like "The Living City", proficiencies would re-appear to dual classed characters when the next class level exceeded the level of the previous class with a few exceptions:
1-INT bonus and would only be used once at initial character creation, but they would carry over if they were among the general or cross-over categories of next class (a bard who becomes a wizard, for instance).
2-Languages and Rd/Write would carry over
3-As written in the restrictions above, one may lose proficiencies or special abilities. For example, a fighter that is not single-classed cannot be specialized in a weapon. So, those weapon proficiencies devoted to that would be lost if the fighter was an earlier class. Likewise, a thief who is proficient in longsword becomes a fighter and would like to keep using the magic longsword found earlier would need to devote a slot to do so without penalty to hit. That extra slot used would be lost once his fighter levels exceeded the thief's.
4-Non-weapon proficiencies that would be doubled up would have the extra slots devoted to them added to the proficiency when the next level exceeded it. For instance, the single class fighter above trains at third level in horsemanship (so the skill does not come from his bonus INT proficiencies he would use at initial creation). He has a Wis of 10, and he takes Riding Land-based (Wis/+3) for a skill check of 13. He dual classes to thief, but still wants to be adept at riding, and he devotes a slot to Riding, Land-based. Until the thief class exceeds the fighter class level, the character would have a 13 base check (10+3). However, when the thief level exceeds the fighter's the initial 1 slot would add as a bonus. Namely, he would have 10 (base) +3 (skill mod) +1 (extra slot spent as thief) for a total of 14.

TristenC wrote:
Riddlemaster kit would be fine, but the kit would have been abandoned when he dual-classed out of bard

The above would indicate a similar vein regarding the 'riding a bike' premise. It is also highlighted in the Complete Fighters book that was the first book to use kits. In it, it says:

If a character starts off as a warrior, he may take any of the Warrior Kits above. If, later, he decides to change classes according to the normal Dual-Class Benefits and Restrictions rules, he doesn't lose any of the benefits or hindrances of the Kit he chose; he is still that sort of fighter. If that second character class also has a range of Kits available to it, he may not choose a new, additional Kit.

edit: The way that reads is pick a kit - you only get one. Period. If you don't like the one you have, you have to abandon it (there is a section in the book detailing that). For the purpose of dual-classed character, the character doesn't get to access the abilities of a previous class kit without the 'no XP for encounter' and 'half for adventure' penalty for reverting back to his old ways - that is until the current class level is greater.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:57 pm 
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if that interpretation were taken, it would be pretty unbalanced compared to say multiclassers (who only get the most favorable chart of their classes for nwps) or especially for a single-class character of similat xp.
It seems absurd that between two characters of the same experience (2mil) one would have 21 nwps (the bard/thief/cleric) and another (say a lvl 16 fighter) to have 8.
even more incredible would be the non-fighter having more weapon proficiencies than a career-warrior.
it's an issue of game balance


-i might put some more thought into the kit thing, but my position was based on the dual class character pursuing a completely new line of work and dedicating himself to that. In order to do that he has to refrain from using his old class abilities until he reaches a similar level in his new class. I simply cant see him stopping his bardic pursuits for 7 levels, then for another 10 and just falling right back into his kit. As i saod, i'll think on this part a bit and get back to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Unfortunately you are correct that it is rather unbalancing in some regard, but to qualify one needs to have the 15 in prime stat(s) of current class and 17's in prime reqs for new class. In addition, we are creating the character with the 2 mil XP and not advancing from 1. Having dual classed lots of times through the years, it is difficult. According to how the characters would look using your interpretation, they would never level up.

To illustrate, the character works his way up to level 7 bard -
4 bonus profs from kit (artistic ability, modern lang, poetry, read/write) and
3 more for level 1 + (Cantrip, animal lore)
3 for INT (Blindfighting, swimming)
followed by 2 more for bard 3 and bard 6 (Cantrip and Cantrip bonus lets say)

Weapons: ambidextrous, longsword initially...and dart at 4th

Now he switches over to Thief with 0 xp. According to how your interpretation to things, he loses all proficiencies and essentially a commoner who is a farmer would have a skill and the bard7/thief1 wouldn't be able to do much of anything - including attack as he has nothing but penalties - unless he took a hit on XP as outlined in the rules (but he would never level up).

It sucks being a former level 7 bard and then suddenly you are a level 1 thief or a level 1 wizard running around with 8th level characters and all you have is a fair amount of hitvpoints but only 1 level 1 spell. That is the trade-off; however, we don't see it here because we are at the end of a career and we miss the struggle to get there.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:26 pm 
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it's true that dual classing is a formidable challenge if done after the first few levels. Since this is a one-shot adventure and (as you say) we skip the struggle and the result of playing it the other way would cause a game imbalance, i'm going to stick with the ruling for this adventure.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:41 am 
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Your game - your rules. Can we at least agree to keep the Riddlemaster kit, then?


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Sorry for the delays, life took control of my weekend. I looked over the kit details more closely, and i think for the riddlemaster kit specifically, it should be fine to keep after the dual-classing. So riddlemaster approved


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:11 pm 
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I hope all is well.

Sounds like a plan. Will work on the mundane items and flush out character sheet.


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 Post subject: Re: Justin Tyme (Private Thread) Tomb of Horrors
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:47 am 
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Thanks. RL is like a cross between herding cats and blind fighting ithrough a level-inappropriate encounter without the nwp right now. I'm trying to at least keel some consistency here though


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