BishGada (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

[TristenC]

I'm guessing Ke'Sha wants Thellena to hold still until he heals her, then go since she will be out of range of his spell if she moves first?

[BishGada]

Will she still be able to do her round? If so then yes. I thought it will be in range, but now thinking of the room size I see my mistake. :/
If she will miss her turn, is it possible to cast that spell through Gur, with him flying invisibly?

[TristenC]

Yes, she can still act it will just be after Ke'Sha in initiative order

[BishGada]

OK. Thanks.

[TristenC]

OK. We have got to this point where Ke'Sha can assume undead form of powerful creatures with spell-like innate abilities. Specifically he can turn into Great Wyrm Amber Zombie dragon (it falls within 8HD) and have 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 / 2 2 2 1 innate spell-like abilities which are given with the transformation. (Actual spells which are the spells that the dragon acquires during his life and copies to his spell book are impossible to use, but the initial spells he automatically knows when aging are innate abilities).
So aside of barely fitting to the room, he is very powerful. I assume you won't like the fact that he can have Limited Wish as innate spell like ability, hence this discussion.

Let's say that for this battle, even if only for it's physical attacks it is much better than the halfling, but in general I'd like us to agree on these abilities, not only for the draco-types but there are other undead with innate spell like abilities, although not many.
Thanks.

So, after re-reading the spell description, the entry for the Amber Dragon and Dracolich, and giving this a lot of thought, I'm even more convinced that the Amber Dragon base type is not a valid target for the spell.This is based on the spell wording clearly stating that "This spell does not work for undead spellcasters." The slots are not 'innate abilities' the slots are learned spells.

There is a distinction, of course, to be made between 'spellcasters' and creatures with innate spell-like abilities. Spell-like abilities are specifically named things with a rate of usage like the Amber Dragon's
-A Dragon's Fear aura
-"innate ability to magnetize an opponent 3x/day"
-"Shape change as a 7th level Druid 3x/day"
-"Blink as the 3rd level wizard spell, once for every 2 age categories."

All those by themselves would be fine. But the list of spell slots is what makes him Also a spellcaster, not merely something with spellike abilities; and thus ineligible for the spell

[BishGada]

I understand "This spell doesn't work for undead spell casters" means that an undead spell caster can't cast "Assume undead form", not that a living caster can't assume a form of undead spell caster. We had this discussion before and back then you agreed this interpretation makes more sense.

I have read on a resource that every dragon as he ages have spells 'pop' into his mind. The number of spells that do that are as the slots. These are innate magic. The dragons just 'know' them. They don't need to write them in books or study for hours to memorize them. They are casted at SF 1, with verbal component only which also suggests not a normal magic but more and innate ability.
Some dragons, like wizards, learn extra spells and they need to learn them like wizards, write them in spell books, memorize them by meditation and so on. These spells are not innate magic. Both innate and non innate spells are count against the slots.

Spells Dragons learn spells haphazardly over the years. The DM
should randomly determine which spells any particular dragon knows.
The dragon can cast each spell once per day, unless random determination indicates the same spell more than once, in which case the dragon
can cast it more than once a day. Dragons to not use spell books or pray
to deities; they simply sleep, concentrate when they awaken, and remember their spells. Dragon spells have only a verbal component; the spells
have a casting time of 1, regardless of level. Dragons cannot physically
attack, use their breath weapon, use their magical ab
to glide) while casting a spell.

...
A gold dragon casts its spells and uses its magical abilities at 11th level,
plus its combat modifier. Unlike other dragons, most gold dragons seek
formal magical training. These dragons own spell books and always have useful spells.
At birth, gold dragons have water breathing ability, can speak with
animals freely, and are immune to fire and gas. They can also polymorph
self three times a day. Each change in form lasts until the dragon chooses
a different form; reverting to the dragon's normal form does not count as
a change. A gold ...

From here you learn that other types of dragon don't necessarily seek formal magical training but still have spells. This supports again innate magic abilities in my opinion.

I also checked with 'Gemini' what he thinks about it. I called the spell caster 'Dornab' (like door knob ) and the target creature 'Creature' (like in Harry Potter). Here is the answer:

Hey! Happy to help you with these AD&D 2nd edition questions. Let's break down the spell and its rules.

### "Assume Undead Form" Spell Interpretation

The spell **"Assume Undead Form"** is quite specific in its limitations. Here's a breakdown of the rules you asked about:

---

## Caster's Abilities vs. Undead Form Abilities

The phrase "**while in undead form, the caster cannot use spells or employ any other granted powers, spell-like abilities, or other special abilities**" refers to the **caster's** original abilities, specifically those of the priest, Doranb. When Doranb transforms, he temporarily loses access to all of his own priest abilities. This means he cannot cast any of his normal spells or use other special powers he might have had, like turning undead or granted powers from his deity. He's essentially a pure martial/physical character for the duration of the spell, relying solely on the abilities of the undead form he has assumed. The spell is clear that he acquires the strengths and weaknesses of the undead form itself, but his **own** special abilities are suppressed.

---

## "Undead Spellcasters" Clause

The phrase "**This spell does not work for undead spellcasters**" refers to the **caster** himself (Doranb). This means that if Doranb was already an undead creature, such as a lich, vampire, or ghost (and was somehow still able to cast priest spells), he would not be able to use the spell "Assume Undead Form." This prevents an already undead being from changing their form using this specific spell. It does not mean that the caster can't transform into an undead creature that has spell-casting abilities; it simply applies to the starting condition of the caster.

---

## Dragon Spellcasting

In AD&D 2nd Edition, a dragon's spellcasting is a unique ability that is considered **innate magic**. Dragons are not wizards or priests; they do not prepare spells from a spellbook, pray for divine favor, or require material components. Their spell-like abilities and innate magic are a fundamental part of their being, often linked to their age and type. The AD&D 2nd Edition **Draconomicon** sourcebook further clarifies that a dragon's spellcasting ability is inherent, not learned in the same way as a human wizard. They can cast spells without a spellbook and with a casting time of 1, which distinguishes their magic from the standard spellcasting rules for other classes.

So it supports both that you can assume undead form of spell caster and that Dragon's magic is innate ability.


In my opinion both holds on to the rules, but you are the DM and it's your call.

[TristenC]

I suppose I chould have benefitted from revisiting the "Dragon: General" portion of the MM more as well. In doing so now, I am reminded of how the "Base HD" arrangement for dragon tables works. The age category table indicates that category 4 is the base with a 'hit dice adjustment' of 'Nil'. The Amber Dragon base HD is 8 with an AC of 3: By the table, an Amber Dragon has AC 3 at age category 4, (2/2/1/1 spells) and Not Age category 12 (the 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 / 2 2 2 1 spell slots you referred to). 8 HD is the max for Undead Form.

To be honest, it is not so much the Dragon, the Dracolich or any of the individual spell-like abilities that concerned me at first. My biggest concern was that it looked like allowing it to be used in this way essentially traded a single 4th level spell slot for 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 wizard and / 2 2 2 1 druid spells, a total of 33 spell slots, 5 of the Same level and 9 of which were Higher than the spell cast to get them! Effectively trading 4 spell levels for (5,8,12,16,15,18,2,4,6,7) = 93 spell levels!
Potentially for EACH 4th level slot Ke'Sha dedicated to "Undead Form"
Perhaps you can understand my initial concern...

However, now that I see the Age Category 4 spell list (2/2/1/1) I am somewhat less concerned. I'll look over the various references again and get back to you, hopefully tomorrow.


Also, I'm not sure who 'Gemini' is supposed to be... Typically I like to use official sources when making these kinds of adjudications.

[BishGada]

Regarding 8HD, the undead dragons has half HD of their original form, yet retain almost all it's innate abilities. They can't fly and use only the innate magic and not 'wizardy' spells. Category 12 origin form is 16 HD thus the undead form is 8HD.

Regarding the spell levels of the dragon, I see your concern, but don't forget that Ke'Sha has 10+20+27+44+35+18+14+9 = 177 spell levels that he can't use while in the undead form, and he also 'gains' the vulnerabilities of the undead form, so I'd argue it is more than a fair trade.
And this duration is only 1rnd/level.

Besides, I'd argue that not all N-level spells are as powerful as others of the same level. In fact there are even times that lower level spells are actually more powerful than higher level spells.

'Gemini' is google AI chat bot. Like ChatGPT.

[TristenC]

While he can't access his own spells during the duration of the spell, he doesn't lose them for the day

That would still be a trade of 4 spell levels for 93 for EACH 4th level slot he devoted to it. He could almost triple his daily spell usage that way, in addition to getting access to wizard spells that he doesn't normally have. There is no way I'm going to agree to that. At best, it will be the version with 2/2/1/1 spells

I'm not seeing where the note about 'half hd' is coming from, maybe I'm overlooking it somewhere.

[BishGada]

What about spending spell levels from his own 'bank'? I mean he has 177 spell levels, in case he manages to use 93 while in undead form, he returns to his form with 84? Do you think it is fair?
I thought that turning into undead spell caster is an interesting flavor to the character.

The half HD comes from here: https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Lesser_Undead_Dragon
It has table at the side saying undead form has half original HD. I checked now the original sources of the Cult of the Dragon and Dragon Magazine 234 and they say they have the original form HD, so it might be a mistake in the link. Very disappointing.

There is another undead spell caster: https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Ghul
7th level wizard (4 3 2 1) and 4HD.

Oh well...

[TristenC]

That entry seems to have 2 different versions, one with half HD and another with the regular HD from the Cult of the Dragon FoR11, and then the text goes om to say Zombie Dragons have the original HD+1.

I'll look over the Great Ghul in a bit.

[TristenC]

Can Ke'Sha instruct Mourkul to move closer to the dimension door, so that Nidrith and Thallena will be in line of sight again? For now he wants to regain control on Alrius and instructs him to attack the figures.
I think Ke'Sha has automatic control over the ju-ju, can Alrius attack at the same round or only on the next one?

Also, can we figure (or role something like Arcana in 5th edition) from our experience, what kind of 'protection' the warrior lizard woman had? Was it stoneskin, magic that absorbs HP like phantom armor, or some other immunity?
)

He can absolutely have Mourkol return so he is in view, and wait to use his Command undead ability once The Spectre and any following him are in sight. Unfortunately, Alrius' initiative is faster than Ke'Sha's, and thus he will move (possibly out of sight) before the necromancer is able to. The speed factor of an ability like turning or controlling undead is 3, so Ke'Sha will go on his count (8+3=11) and Alrius will go on his (4+3=7). In fact, it looks like the jujus and wraith all move before Mourkol, so he may not have anyone in view until the next round unless he goes down into the room via the bubbles and moves to where he can see them.

You can make an Int check to see if Ke'Sha can figure out what is protecting the snake-woman since he saw Alrius strike her ineffectively. I will apply secret adjustments to the roll based on what Ke'Sha may or may not know.

[BishGada]

Alrius is moving to attack Mourkol? So I assume he will move North, Mourkol moves South East followed passing over Thallena and followed by Nidrith, and so Alrius will correct his direction to East and all will be in line of sight, no? Also Mourkol can fly, so he can be out of their reach, right? So Ke'Sha will instruct him to move flying out of reach to a position that Ke'Sha can see them (which might be a bit farther than where he can spot Mourkol since they are on the ground).

Ke'Sha Int check on the lizard protection: [1d20]=14

[TristenC]

Alrius, Nidrith and Thallena are all attacking Mourkol and they move before Mourkol in the initiative. So they will all move out of sight of Ke'Sha and attack. Later in the initiative, when Mourkol goes, he will be able to move to where Ke'Sha can see him, but the others will have to wait until next round to follow.

Yes, Mourkol can fly above the others and out of reach, but not until his turn in the initiative. Ke'Sha goes after all of them in initiative order

Looks like he barely passed his Int check. It seems like she has Stoneskin or a similar effect on her

[BishGada]