Lord Torath (Private thread) Labyrinth of Madness

[TristenC]

It's a lvl 2 priest spell from the Priest Spell compendium. The gist is that it's more than wishing for a single spell effect, it's wishing for a permanent version of an effect without any downsides (like the cost, chance of not getting the familiar you want, and the chance it is killed and the ramifications thereof, etc.) Closing the eyes is basically from the bat sense spell, the echolocation mechanic is not well explained in the text you referenced as far as I could see but the spell below describes it in good detail. Regarding closing the eyes, I see it as a balance and a practical way to focus on one of the senses over the others. Our entire lives we rely on sight for most of our input, only very recently has this effect become available to Steve, just as it would for a wizard with a newly summoned familiar. If someone summoned a bat familiar in the normal way, I would use this same mechanic.

https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Bat_Sense_(Priest_Spell)

The first wish is granted.


As for the others, there is some guidance I use on how Wishe's work in "Complete Wizard" Ch7 under Spell Commentary.
-wishes can change 1 stat by 1 point but not above 16

We can say Steve might have heard in his long career of how wishes go, and so might have some familiarity with these guidelines. I'll essentially provide a 'risk level' for the cases you posed

To be able to see as clearly in the dark as I do in the daylight (Find Familiar - owl). Low risk
To double the effectiveness of my receptacle power.
To be able to exceed the 'no more PSPs stored than your normal maximum' limit. High Risk. The item is already very powerful (basically doubles his psps) and this would basically be like tripling it
For a Girdle of Giant Strength Low-Med. depending on the wording of the wish
For the dexterity equivalent of a Girdle of Giant Strength (this is not a magic item that currently exists) Med-high Risk, depending on the wording
For the AC of my armor to be improved to -7 (Red Great Wyrm equivalent) High Risk.
For a Ring of Elemental Command - Air High Risk.

[Lord Torath]

Axid Brasspick of Clan Silverhand (Strius) - Male Dwarven Psionicist (N)
Ke'Sha (BishGada) - Male Halfling death priest - necromancer (CE?)
--Gur - Quasit Familiar
Jagrinder (Nocturno) - Male Tusked elf cleric/mage (12/12) (CG)

Allikhain (NPC - Tarlyn) - Female Human Necromancer (wizard) 15 - Undead Hunter (N?)
--Binky - Quasit familiar of Allikhain
Landro (NPC - Rainshadow) - Male Firbolg Fighter - Neutral
--Two-handed sword+4
Jack o' Shadows (NPC-Chris107 -> Nocturno) - Male Human Thief 19 (CG)

Lena "Angel" Gallus (NPC) Female Half-Elf Paladin (14) LG - Stays in 'camp'.

Im-Ravin, priest of Dyris. Creator of the scepter.

*****************************************************

My “I'll just leave this stuff here for now” section
*****************************************************

Stephan focuses his thoughts on Jack. <Do you remember where the room with the black puddings is? Are they still around? Can you picture where it is in relation to where we are now? It could be helpful to know where that room is.>


<Landro, may I have a moment of your time?> Stephen sends. <Bring your sword.> Stephen grabs his jewelry kit and the blue jasper he'd empowered earlier.


“Watch what I can do with my dagger,” he says, drawing it and causing the blade to flatten. “In this state, it can cut through just about anything. Watch how effortless this is,” Stephen picks up a bit of rock and slices a long thin sliver off. “If I mount this other gem on your sword, it can do the same thing for your blade.”


With silver wire from his kit, Stephen makes a mount for the gem right above the hilt of the massive weapon, where it will be out of the way of Landro's huge hands. After the blue stone is secured, he touches it with a finger, concentrates for a bit, and the blade suddenly flattens. He withdraws his hand, then touches the stone again and the blade returns to normal.


“Your turn.”

<First, just touch the stone. Now reach out with your mind. Can you feel the stone? Can you sort of sense how it feels about you? It can't speak as such, but you can feel how it's feeling - some of mine get a bit mischievous at times, a bit playful. Sometimes they will anticipate my needs and activate without me having to do a thing. With time, this one will do the same for you. I haven't named this one; I'm leaving that up to you.

<Now mentally ask it to flatten the blade. Yes, just like that. It can hold that for up to 9 minutes at a time, and recovers at a rate of about 1 minute per hour. Sometimes, when it gets it just right, the blade sort of vibrates, flickering between flat and normal so quickly that the hilt seems to buzz slightly. When that happens, it absolutely destroys anything you swing it through. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, the results are spectacular!>

“Do you have any questions?”


Link to Gur's answers from his Commune spell

*******
Because you can't hear with your eyes open? See Sound (CPsiHB p37) does not require closing your eyes.

In previous games where I got a bat familiar, we set the range at 50 yards, since that's the range of the ultrasonic sights in Shadowrun (well, 50 meters). But I'm good with 60 feet.

[TristenC]

has nothing to do with not being able to hear, more about being able to focus on the stimulus giving you a massively enhanced benefit to a degree that the character has never experienced before this.

Also, the psionic ability you metioned is litterally called See sound. Obviously not the same.

[Lord Torath]

It's the same general thing, though. I am taking in sound and using it to create a 3D image of my environment. Keeping my eyes open makes it easier to see how the two agree (or disagree) with each other. There is no reason why I should have to close my eyes to use echolocation. Yes, there's that 2nd level spell from Dragon Magazine, but this is a wish! Bats don't need to close their eyes. Dolphins don't need to close their eyes. People in the real world can be trained to use echolocation, and they don't need to close their eyes.

I mean, the Find Familiar spell doesn't say anything about needing to close your eyes. If you'd prefer, I'll take the full effects of the spell, including a cute little bat friend ("I wish to have the effects of having a bat for a familiar." could be read as including the actual familiar). But needing to close your eyes to use echolocation is stupid.

[TristenC]

Wish results aren't always 100% exactly what the user asks for, whether friendly or not. The phrasing was "the effects of having a bat for a familiar." This is exactly how i would interpret the echolocation senses of having a bat for a familiar.

Once again, the question is not whether the animal does, it is about a new level of benefit to the human.

There is no need to use insulting language.

[Lord Torath]

Sorry, the 'stupid' was directed at the author of the Bat Sense spell, not at you.

[TristenC]

Thank you. It's been a pretty hectic day at work as well and I probably read it harsher than intended.

[Lord Torath]

Trigger Warning: Gigantic Wall-O-Text

I think what I’m feeling here comes down to informed choices. I feel like I’m being punished (aka my wish weakened) for something I didn’t know. That I didn’t even know I didn’t know. Should I have known beforehand that echolocation only works in-game when your eyes are closed?

I had never heard of the Bat Sense spell before (there are literally thousands of spells in the compendiums of varying levels of quality and editorial review of which I’ve probably read a couple hundred – and those mostly the ones that show up in other sources: the PHB/ToM/Spelljammer and Dark Sun settings/specific adventures), and it never occurred to me that I wouldn’t be able to use echolocation with my eyes open. None of the in-game mechanics I was familiar with hinted at anything of the sort, and no real-world analogs suggest it either. To me, it feels like this requirement is coming clear out of left field. To put it another way, it feels like I’m being locked into a choice when that choice couldn’t be made in an informed way.

The wording of the wish implies that Steve has previously met and spent time with a wizard with a bat familiar. He would have been aware of the limitation (as I as a player was not) of requiring closed eyes from talking with said wizard. Is it not reasonable to assume that Steve would have known to ask for an eyes-open version, even though I did not?

Looking at things from a DM’s perspective, is being able to see and use echolocation at the same time game-breaking? Wishes are supposed to be powerful, but not game-breaking, because that ruins everyone’s fun. I won’t try to wish to know the location of the pool we need to plunge the scepter into, for example, because that would effectively end the adventure, ruining the fun. I don’t feel that being able to use echolocation with my eyes open is either game breaking or adventure ending.

What’s your perspective?

[TristenC]

It's not meant to be punitive. In practice, I wouldn't expect having to close ones eyes to be very inconvenient to the character when they wanted to see basically all physical things (be they invisible, hidden, camouflage, etc) in 360 degrees at a range of 60 feet even in total magical darkness. As I mentioned before, there are not a lot of direct descriptions of using the echolocation mechanic that I could find (if there is one in an official source that goes into sufficient detail, I'd be interested in reading it.) I did find one example that was essentially exactly that mechanic in detail with the one minor limitation (i.e. the bat sense). That said if you're dissatisfied with this particular echolocation mechanic we can discuss a different effect for the first wish, it need not be wasted on something you're unhappy with.

Some examples that come to mind are 'permanent detect invisibility' (although basic detect invisibility has a far more limited angle and scope of use). I have seen at least one example of something that is basically 360 degree vision with the benefit of detect invisibility, the caveat there being it doesn't allow sight in total darkness as echolocation does. In a similar vein, the psionic power 'All around vision' would accomplish a portion of the ability and the power score even allows for added infravision, though it lacks the ability to detect the invisible.

These are obviously just some examples, but if there is another known established example of something you prefer then let me know.

[Lord Torath]

In the absence of in-game mechanics* I tend to default to real world examples. Hence my point that bats, dolphins, and whales don’t need to close their eyes to use echolocation.

I will also look into other systems, like how Shadowrun gives a 50 m range to ultrasonic sights. Sound travels at about 1000 feet per second, so it covers 50 yards in just under 1/6th of a second. That seems like a reasonable limit to me.

2E Mechanics-wise, there’s the ‘see sound’ devotion already mentioned that doesn’t require closing one’s eyes. There is nothing there about it conflicting with regular vision.

Sight Link lets a psionicist see what someone else sees. There is no need to close your own eyes to use this, although it may be confusing to see their vision overlayed on your own, so closing your eyes is recommended. But with echolocation, your ears and your eyes should agree with each other. The two abilities complement each other; they should paint the same pictures with each other – unless there are shenanigans currently in progress, of course!

If I had added the eyes-open line to my wish, would you have still honored it?

Do you feel that it is game- or fun-breaking?

* Or in the case of mechanics that are in direct opposition to what I would expect – like light, medium, and heavy ballistae in Spelljammer using the same ammo, and the difference in damage and range being determined by the force imparted to the projectile by the launcher. Yet a light ballista does the least damage while having 3 times the projectile range and speed of the heavy ballista. This is non-sensical, so I overruled it.

Edit: Just realized when I was looking at Dragonhide Armor I left out Gold dragon, of which a Great Wyrm's hide would grant AC: -8, one better than the -7 from a red dragon. Not going to worry about it now, but something to keep in mind for future suits of dragonhide.

[TristenC]

If you prefer to have the wish duplicate See Sound as a permanent effect we can do that, but it is a different mechanic. The description says 'enables a character to percieve sound visually" which is certainly not the same as echolocation, though it does accomplish something very similar.

Whether or not something is 'game breaking' isn't the point.

I don't feel like there is much more point in going around in circles on echolocation. Is there a different effect you would like to sbstitute for the first wish?

[Lord Torath]

Whether or not something is 'game breaking' isn't the point.

Then what is the point? This is not a rhetorical question on my part. I feel it is important for me to understand where you’re coming from and what I can expect in the future.

I've specified that I intended the wish to include the ability to use it with eyes open and provided both in-game and real-world justification.


Here’s the big question I really feel I need a direct answer to: Is the ability to use echolocation with eyes open within the ability of a wish? If not, why? If I ask for different senses (say, better vision, or a better sense of smell), will I need to shut down other senses to take advantage of them?


You mentioned up-thread something about this being a recent effect to Steve. This implies that with time he would not need to close his eyes to use both senses. How long would it take for Steve to get to the point where he can use his echolocation with his eyes open? How much practice would he need? Would this also apply to someone with a bat familiar?

I know you want to move on, but I feel this is important to resolve, even if I end up going with a different wish.

I hope this didn't come across as combative. It is not intended that way. Please feel free to take your time and think your way through your answers. This is not simple stuff.

Edit:

These are obviously just some examples, but if there is another known established example of something you prefer then let me know.

I think I misunderstood this sentence. I thought you were asking more alternate mechanics for resolving the echolocation question, but you were probably asking for an alternate wish.

[Lord Torath]

Oh, hey, easy Dagger of throwing question: The DMG says it has a range of 180 feet (60 yards). Do you treat that as all short range? Or so you break it up into the normal 3 range categories (presumably 20/40/60 yards)?

[TristenC]

You mentioned up-thread something about this being a recent effect to Steve. This implies that with time he would not need to close his eyes to use both senses. How long would it take for Steve to get to the point where he can use his echolocation with his eyes open? How much practice would he need? Would this also apply to someone with a bat familiar?

To be honest, that nuance I would have to give a lot of thought and I suppose it would depend. I've never had a player opt for a bat familiar before (even after playing/DMing for several decades <insert old man emoji here>) so I really hadn't considered it, but given the below it may be a moot point.

I've specified that I intended the wish to include the ability to use it with eyes open and provided both in-game and real-world justification.

Here’s the big question I really feel I need a direct answer to: Is the ability to use echolocation with eyes open within the ability of a wish? If not, why? If I ask for different senses (say, better vision, or a better sense of smell), will I need to shut down other senses to take advantage of them?

Yeah, I must have overlooked that bit. I have been doing a lot of checking/ answering things while at work because I don't always have time once I get home, and sometimes I miss things. I suppose it could be argued that Steve is high enough level that he would have gotten around a lot in adventuring circles. Ergo I agree that it is feasible he would at some point have known a wizard with a bat familiar well enough to discuss the particulars.
It is within the ability of a wish to provide the use of echolocation with the eyes open. How would you like to word the wish?

Edit:

These are obviously just some examples, but if there is another known established example of something you prefer then let me know.

I think I misunderstood this sentence. I thought you were asking more alternate mechanics for resolving the echolocation question, but you were probably asking for an alternate wish.

Yeah, I was asking about alternate wishes but I can see I could have worded it more clearly

Oh, hey, easy Dagger of throwing question: The DMG says it has a range of 180 feet (60 yards). Do you treat that as all short range? Or so you break it up into the normal 3 range categories (presumably 20/40/60 yards)?

I think the range categories makes the most sense given that the 180 feet mentioned in the magic item entry is exactly twice the distance of a normal dagger Long range. So yeah, let's go with the 20/40/60 yards.

[Lord Torath]

...even after playing/DMing for several decades <insert old man emoji here>...

I usually go with "Git off my lawn, ya danged whippersnappers!"

I have been doing a lot of checking/ answering things while at work because I don't always have time once I get home, and sometimes I miss things.

Same here! And the time available at work is frequently only available a couple minutes at a time, making it easy to miss things, or think I've addressed things I haven't - or to overaddress them in the same post!

How’s this?

“I wish to be able to use echolocation* with my eyes open, similarly** to how a wizard with a bat familiar can.”
* OOC - or another term more appropriate to the setting that means the same thing – Sound-sight? Echo-sight? Echolocation sounds very modern, even though both ‘echo’ and ‘location’ are setting-appropriate words.
** OOC - should this be 'similar' instead? Should I be using an adverb or adjective here?

Another - completely unrelated - question: What is someone’s "true identity"? This isn’t an urgent question, but Steve will probably be using Identity Penetration (telepathic devotion requiring Contact) at some point in the future, so you’ll want an answer ready. Here’s the entire power description, aside from the power score/20 results and the 'stat block'.

Identity Penetration allows the user to determine the target's true identity in spite of polymorphs, illusions, disguises, etc.

What precisely does that mean? What is meant by "true identity"? How much information is contained in that? Is it just a name? A race and a name? If you use it on a monster you've never seen or encountered before (it's on the other side of a door or wall, so you still can't see it, even though you're using this power on it currently) getting a name might tell you nothing ("Eater of Ice Bears the remorhaz? What by Odin's Eyepatch is a Remorhaz?"). How much information is included in one's "true identity"?

Steve has probably used this in the past (he learned it clear back at 6th level), so he should have some idea already of what precisely it tells him.