1 or 2e.. To train or not to train..

[garhkal]

Are you of the type, that when a Player's character earns enough XP, they go "BING, red warrior is now level XYX" Or do you require them to train up to gain the benefits of the new level?

DO you have a HR on it, where like they go "bing" on levels where all that increases is saves/thac0, but if they gain something new (like a new NWP or WP or spell level) then they have to train?

If you DO require training, how much? how long?

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I've done it both ways - where they need training, and where it's just -BING! New level!

Not sure which I prefer. There's pros and cons to each. I do like the training rule because it siphons off some money, makes for some fun roleplaying, adds to the back-story, and helps provide opportunity for new and interesting NPCs, ongoing story-lines, and reliable resources. On the other hand - it's time consuming, requires more work from the DM, doesn't offer much action, slows down play, and usually only addresses a single PC or two at a time.

The instant BING! - New level method is quick, doesn't require sacrifice of game time, doesn't exhaust possibly low PC resources (read: cash), keeps the game moving, doesn't require lots of DM work, makes the PCs more independent, and allows the PCs to not have to go immediately home before going on the next adventure. On the other hand, it loses a lot of roleplaying potential, and can make the PCs seem a bit too powerful (no need to learn anything from anyone).

Overall, I tend to decide based on the personalities of the players. Some love the training rules, some hate it.

[garhkal]

For me, the main negative with the 'ping new level' is it completely shatters verisimilitude..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I'd say yes and no. In so many fields, at some point I started being self-taught and passed up others who actually had teachers. So it works both ways I'd say. For example, some of the most educated people I know when it comes to health care and nutrition are self-taught, self-researched people without licenses or degrees. On the other hand, most of the licensed nutritionists I've met who've actually gone to school and gotten their licenses have tended to be idiots who have no clue about health.

[TigerStripedDog]

Characters in my campaign level when they have a chance to rest.

NWP's and WP's at their base levels do not require training. Specialization, Mastery, High Mastery, Grand Mastery all require training. NWP's which require super specialized knowledge (Sage Knowledge, Smithing, etc) may require training at my discretion.

Tiger

[garhkal]

Characters in my campaign level when they have a chance to rest.

NWP's and WP's at their base levels do not require training. Specialization, Mastery, High Mastery, Grand Mastery all require training. NWP's which require super specialized knowledge (Sage Knowledge, Smithing, etc) may require training at my discretion.

Tiger

On that they "level in the field when they have a chance to rest". Does that give new spells to the mages??

[JadedDM]

I do the same as TigerStripedDog. Leveling up does not require training, but it does require a rest (it doesn't just happen on the field). But proficiencies do require training.

For spells, when a mage hits a new spell level, they get one freebie. Any others they need to research themselves, or trade for, or buy, or find.

[garhkal]

I do the same as TigerStripedDog. Leveling up does not require training, but it does require a rest (it doesn't just happen on the field). But proficiencies do require training.

For spells, when a mage hits a new spell level, they get one freebie. Any others they need to research themselves, or trade for, or buy, or find.

How does that work? If they are in the field, and resting, where does that new spell come from? Just "pop out of nowhere into their mind/spellbook?"

[JadedDM]

From the DMG, Chapter 7: Magic, under 'Going Up in Levels':

First, whenever a character attains a new spell level, allow the player one new spell immediately. You can choose this spell, let the player choose it, or select it randomly.

The rationale behind this is simple: All the long hours of study and reading the character has been doing finally jells into something real and understandable.

No roll is needed to learn this spell, unless you allow the character to choose it. If the character is a specialist in a school of magic, the new spell should be from that school--if there is a spell available.

Emphasis mine.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Assuming I'm running a campaign where the PCs level without using the training rules, I allow characters to level up even during adventures. I go by the DMG entry that JadedDM quoted. The assumption is, as stated, that the PCs are constantly learning via experience, so at some point it just "gels". I remember my early handgun training and the day I learned to catch the trigger reset instead of just slapping the trigger. In the middle of a training exercise, my accuracy honed in amazingly. So why wouldn't it happen with the PCs?

The only part that can be a bit questionable about this is new spells for wizards. Where do they come from? But I've ruled that the wizard has simply been researching the new spells, or perhaps had access to them via discovered scrolls or spellbooks he's found over the course adventuring since his last level.

[garhkal]

Maybe it just makes no sense to ME< that they would all of a suddenly go "GEE i now understand x spell", especially if they've never encountered it or been in labs researching it..

That's why to ME, you only gain that new spell, IF YOU HAVE A TEACHER. If you are self taught, you don't get one..
AND I KNOW Some might say i am gimping mages, but even using the rule that way, i've not seen it cause players to NOT want to play mages..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Maybe it just makes no sense to ME< that they would all of a suddenly go "GEE i now understand x spell", especially if they've never encountered it or been in labs researching it..

Agreed. That's why I said it would be a spell he had been researching or that he came across in a spell book or scroll.

That's why to ME, you only gain that new spell, IF YOU HAVE A TEACHER. If you are self taught, you don't get one..

But doesn't that eliminate one of the coolest aspects of being a wizard - being able to design new spells? According to that logic, no wizard can ever create a new spell because he must be taught each spell.

[garhkal]

Agreed. That's why I said it would be a spell he had been researching or that he came across in a spell book or scroll.

Part of the rules, is that to research a spell, from a scroll, one still needs a lab.. Therefore i can't see them doing that on the road.
For enemy captured spellbooks, they would have to have passed their chance to know roll when they got the book and scanned the pages.. If passed, they can then copy the spell as is.. no need to wait till they have a new level to pop it in their book..

But doesn't that eliminate one of the coolest aspects of being a wizard - being able to design new spells? According to that logic, no wizard can ever create a new spell because he must be taught each spell.

Researching a band new spell (Designing it) and gaining a new spell on leveling, are two different balls of wax hal.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Part of the rules, is that to research a spell, from a scroll, one still needs a lab.. Therefore i can't see them doing that on the road.

What I mean is that the wizard has been studying it in between adventures. He's copied it into his spell book. All he lacks is the mental ability to make it gel. When he gains that level, his experience in spellcasting is what allows it to gel.

For enemy captured spellbooks, they would have to have passed their chance to know roll when they got the book and scanned the pages.. If passed, they can then copy the spell as is.. no need to wait till they have a new level to pop it in their book..

True. I still make them roll for their chance to learn new spells.

Researching a band new spell (Designing it) and gaining a new spell on leveling, are two different balls of wax hal.

How so? If you need a teacher to teach you a spell that already exists (in the PHB for example), then that means the wizard cannot learn a spell on his own. So how can he invent new ones? I'd presume that inventing a new spell is much harder than learning one that's already been figured out.

[Cole]

Well because I have limited time... I'll just cut to the chase

I make mages find a teacher and nobody else (super specialized). I feel you are constantly learning through your actions. Gaining xp means you have attained the knowledge and knowhow to move on and excel at your trade. You don't need a teacher to teach your fighter to swing a sword better. You learn through experience and your ALIVE at second level because you deserve to be alive and used your weaponry and self training to get there.

For NWP's, I like to offer up my players a choice of what they may have been watching or learning during the game. For example. If Tony the Fighter was watching Bill the Ranger build fires for the last few levels, Tony would most likely take fire building. If Tony was watching Bill forage for food or track down game etc, then he could take "foraging" or "tracking" as his next NWP. I like this part to make sense. You have been participating in the game and have supposedly been watching and learning from the other party members then that's what your options are.

Some NWP's can be self taught though, IE Swimming. If your PC tries to swim on a regular basis or tries to ride a horse with competency often, then I see no reason they couldn't take "swimming" or "land based riding" once they are able to.

that's my 2 cents