Revisiting Demihuman Level Limits

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Straight BTB that is true. BUT on the racia apathy chart, MANY people seem to not even use it. They also open up all classes to all races which kills that first part, and though yes they have no racial ability score penalties, they also have no bonuses.. Which sorts of cancels out. So that leaves the weapons/armor chart. BUT as i also see quite a few DMs who feel 'all dMS' should talor treasure to their party, that also is kinda cancelled out..
So what's left? Very little if anything making humans anything special.

That's all true. But again, you're talking about DMs who ignore half the rules as written! I would agree that if the DM drops all of those rules, then sure, humans would be seen as less desirable. But when it comes to ability scores, demihumans come out neutral (for example, elves gain +1 pt DEX but lose -1 pt CON,so a net gain of 0). That gives them no advantage over humans. I'd never do away with the class restrictions. I feel that would not only change the flavor of the game, it would also make humans less desirable. I mean, if you take away EVERYTHING that makes humans attractive or that gives them some advantage, then why play them indeed? The only reason I target the demihuman level limits rule exclusively (well, along with damage caps from 2E, but that applies to all races, PC or NPC so it doesn't change anything) as opposed to racial class restrictions and magic item availability, etc, is that class restrictions make sense from a literary standpoint, while level limits have never made the least bit of sense to me, and are illogical on every level.

I grant that level limits can serve a purpose (albeit in most cases an arbitrary and meaningless one) - that being the "encouragement" (some would call it coercion ) of players to play humans. And even in that singular actual effective use for the rule, unless the DM and/or players desire or require the party to be predominantly human (or at least be well represented by humans), there is no need for the rule. If the DM and/or players aren't fixated on whether or not, or how many, humans are in the party, then there is no need to "encourage" (coerce) the players into playing humans. What would be the point?

Notice that I said require the party to be predominantly human. I said that specifically because the rule can accomplish the goal of forcing more players to choose human characters, while the rule has no bearing whatsoever as far as the racial balance of the campaign world itself. It cannot have any such function. On top of all that, I feel that with good players there are always better alternatives to level limits if a humano-centric party is required or desired, and indeed with good players I've virtually never seen a lack of humans (in my campaigns anyway - admittedly I'm probably in a small minority to experience that particular phenomenon).

The singular even semi-valid argument that anyone can have for level limits is the need to influence more players to pick human characters. But if the players and/or DM don't have some compelling reason/desire to ensure lots of human characters, then the rule loses its sole reason for existing. So why bother with it? I'm certainly not saying that a DM is wrong to want (or require) more humans in the party, or wrong to use level limits to achieve that goal (even though I prefer other methods), even if his sole reason is "Well I like humans". I'm simply saying that absent the need/desire for a greater number of human characters, the rule serves no purpose.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Oops! Hit "post" too quick and missed replying to a few things.

Garhkal wrote:

BUT what about our elves.. They still get bonuses to hit with 4 of the most common weapons (long and short swords, long and short bows), secret door detection powers, and charm/sleep resistance..
Dwarves get bookou detections and major save bonuses..

There is a good balance there though, I would say. Sure, dwarves get the ability to detect slopes and inclines (I have literally almost never seen that matter in a game and I would hardly take detecting slopes and inclines over being able to find weapons and armor that fit me).

Dwarf: "I can detect slopes and inclines and even guess at how deep we are underground, none of which you can do, human!"
Human: "Whoopee! I get to wear the plate mail +3 that we just found because you can't fit into it, and I get to claim the two-handed vorpal sword that you can't even wield, and oh, I guess I don't have to worry about my magic items malfunctioning 1 time out of every 5!"
Dwarf: "Grumble, grumble, grumble..."



I mean sure, elves get some good bonuses...infravision, +to hit with weapons, charm resistance, etc. But they lose 1 pt. of CON, they have fewer items that fit them (only 20% of magic armor found), they cannot be raised or resurrected , etc. In 2E they cannot be bards, illusionists, druids, or paladins - all powerful classes. In 1E, they cannot be druids, paladins, rangers, illusionists or monks - even fewer powerful classes open to them compared to humans!

Dwarves get some very minor abilities (detect slopes, how deep are we underground, yawn...) but also a few great ones (bonus against magic, poison). But on the other hand they have a 1-in-5 chance of a magic item malfunction, they have only a 10% chance that any magical armor found fits them, many weapons are too large for them to wield, etc. Kinda sucks when the dwarf is almost dead, drinks a potion of extra healing and gains...nothing!

Based on info from both the dwarf and elf handbooks..

You lost me there a bit. Not sure what you're referring to that's based on those books. Regardless, would we consider them core rules (those two books), or optional rules?

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I would also note that in the Forgotten Realms, the elves are retreating to Evermeet. The elves of Evermeet have by far the finest navy in the Forgotten Realms, they have very high level elves of each class, they control high elven magic and they hold numerous artifacts of great power. And yet the human kingdoms aren't in any way threatened by the elves. Their concern is the (mainly human) Zhentarim, the (exclusively human) Red Wizards of Thay, the (mainly human) Cult of the Dragon, etc.

[garhkal]

Actuallt on the breeding angle in 2e at least, both elves and dwarves are wrote (in their racial handbooks at least) as being NO WHERE as prolific breaders as humans are..
Humans can have trips, quads, and so on, elves are rare as hell to get twins, and trips or beyond are unheard of. Plus they take a lot longer to gestitate and the like.. So in that 20 years of breeding capacity a human has, they may have had a dozen kids. An Elf in TEN times that time frame, may have had 3 kids...

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Garhkal wrote:

Actuallt on the breeding angle in 2e at least, both elves and dwarves are wrote (in their racial handbooks at least) as being NO WHERE as prolific breaders as humans are..
Humans can have trips, quads, and so on, elves are rare as hell to get twins, and trips or beyond are unheard of. Plus they take a lot longer to gestitate and the like.. So in that 20 years of breeding capacity a human has, they may have had a dozen kids. An Elf in TEN times that time frame, may have had 3 kids...

So that again reinforces the argument that elves are not such a huge threat, simply because there will be far, far fewer of them. Although I admit I'm not sure of the math depending on how many elves vs. humans we start with and how much longer elves breed. But if we take that at face value, then it tends to refute the argument Cole gave about elves out-breeding humans. Again, unless there's some complex math combo that changes that, which is above my pay grade!

[garhkal]

Of course its above your paygrade.. You need to be the ultimate lord of the zombie horde to understand it.. And Rizzak has that title for now!

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Bingo! I hate long calculations. And once we hit algebra, forget it!

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

The subject got brought up with my player today, peripherally. And it made me think of another huge illogical aspect of the rule. Keep in mind that adventurers are exceptional individuals, that they are more...well, adventurous!...and that they have a special drive and personal power that allows the to transcend the mundane life of a simple farmer who will always be a 0th-level character and actually gain levels.

So we have an adventuring party that includes an elven wizard and a human wizard. Using 2E standards, the human and elven wizards adventure together, face the same challenges, fight the same monsters, solve the same puzzles, and overcome the same challenges. They both advance at the same speed. Then suddenly at 15th level, the elf wizard abruptly and inexplicably stops gaining experience, despite the fact that he continues to face the same challenges, fight the same monsters, solve the same puzzles, and overcome the same challenges as the human wizard. Why? The whole argument that "elves have longer lives so they're essentially slackers" doesn't cut it here, now does it? TSR/Gygax/lemmings would have me believe that due to some bizarre, inexplicable, illogical reason, the elf character is suddenly too stupid to learn from his experience and gain levels even while he is just as anxious for power and adventure as his human colleague. We're asked to believe that for some insane reason, at 15th level the elf suddenly just stops being able to advance in level even if he continues to adventure for another 20 years, even while his human companion continues to gain another 10 levels or so, hitting 25th. If there is any logic to that, it's logic from the Cthulhu universe, because it's bent and warped and makes my mind ache even trying to find a way to understand it!

Even more insane is this...

The half-elf wizard - who has at least partly human blood and a shorter life than his elven relatives - actually peaks at 12th level! We can't use the silly argument of "elves live so long, they don't have the same drive", because even if we do agree to the insanely illogical argument that elves are such slackers, or become so at a certain level of attainment, this would not apply to the half-elf. He lives at most 185 years, compared to a human's 130 years and an elf's 750+ years (at which point the elf continues living, he just retreats to his own lands). The half-elf averages a lifespan of 156 years, the human 111 years. That's not a huge difference in AD&D terms. So how would Gygax/TSR justify a lower max level for half-elves (using their goofy "elves are lazy due to long lifespan" argument) when in fact the half-elf would therefore have far more drive to excel in a shorter time, seeing as he is more like a human than an elf when it comes to lifespan. Using that argument, the half-elf should have the higher level limit, not the full elf.

I tell you, the more I discuss or think about this, the less sense it makes.

[garhkal]

Does an elf and a human have exactly the same inds? outlook on things? No they don't. That's something you are overlooking in all of this. Elves ARE NOT HUMANS IN Funny skins..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I wouldn't say I'm overlooking anything. Again, what mechanism would cause an elf to suddenly stop learning (i.e. leveling) even though he's out on the same adventures as the humans, doing the same things, gaining the same experiences? "Different outlook" is sort of a generic saying that's never really explained (i.e. it's quoted often, but the details are never given, outside of the nonsensical "long life = low drive theory). Does the elf's outlook suddenly, inexplicably change simply because he reaches a certain level of attainment, and then get stuck forever? The "long life = low drive" argument clearly doesn't cut it, because the elf is indeed driven to excel, being a rare adventurer type. He excels at the same speed as the human. Until some arbitrary point at which he...suddenly stops? Why?

And again, the half-elf should be able to reach higher levels, using the "long life = low drive" theory. I can't figure how outlook would have anything to do with it, or even what that means.

[garhkal]

How's about this from the elven handbook..

Above all, elves are patient. They have years to complete any task, and they don't mind the wait. After all, they have created many ways to wile away time. They find impatience to be an especially amusing vice possessed by the other races. If the need for haste is urgent, however, elves can move faster and more decisively than most of the other races.
Elves tend to be very clever and devious, having had years to practice their skills and hone their minds. Their conversation and their games possess many degrees of subtlety, most of which goes unheeded by non-elves.
Elves delight in paradox and humor, for it is through these attributes that they express themselves most fully. These two qualities allow them to communicate with one another and affords great verbal play as elves try to outwit each other. Although elves are primarily happy folk, they are capable of great emotions of a much darker nature.
An angry elf is a terrible foe. An elf bent on vengeance is even worse. As mentioned, elves have an inexhaustible store of patience. They can wait for years before exacting revenge—after their prey has been lulled into a false sense of security. Or they can hunt their enemies over the years, never faltering or slowing in the pursuit of their quarry.
Occasionally, elves will make a pretense of the hunt and let the person "escape." After the person has taken to flight, the elf is likely to appear at random intervals—a tactic designed to keep fear instilled in the heart of the person. This can make for a life of anxiety for anyone who has earned the wrath of elves, for that person never knows when the elf may strike to claim vengeance. This is one reason that the elves are so feared as foes, for no one wishes to live a paranoid life fearing elven wrath.

Outlook

Their lifespan gives elves a unique perspective on life than most other races can't share. Elves don't worry about not experiencing enough in their lives; rather, they look for the next new thing to excite their curiosity and enthusiasm.
This lifespan also means that elves develop an attitude and a character that is uniquely their own. No one can tell exactly how their years will affect each individual elf. Typically, elves begin their lives as carefree, fun-loving spirits. As they grow older, most of them become slightly more cautious, yet still retain the warmth and vitality necessary for elves to fully enjoy their lives.
Still, some of them start life with a more serious attitude, believing (despite the advice of their elders) that their time is too short to be spent frittering it away on such foolishness as dancing and singing. As these elves grow older, they often become obsessed with finding a meaning to everything, seeking the fundamental truths of existence. Some few realize that their years are enough for both truth and fun. Most, however, continue on in a somewhat joyless existence, spending their years associating exclusively with sages and elder beings. Eventually, they lock themselves away from true life. In seeking the "truth," they lose the meaning and purpose of that which they value most: their lives.
Most elves, as has been noted, are more interested in living life fully. They can begin several projects within the span of a year, such as writing songs, creating works of art, learning swordplay, and so forth. They think nothing of setting aside each project when something more interesting comes along. After all, with centuries at one's disposal, taking a decade or two on a task is nothing to worry about. If they lose interest in the product in the intervening time, they can always ignite interest by reliving it through the reverie.
Obviously, elves see no need to hurry themselves through anything. If their short-lived friends legitimately need something quickly, elves will rush to fill that need. If left to their own devices, however, elves will take a much longer time than might otherwise be appreciated by a human. Elf lives simply aren't short enough to worry about haste. But elves are far from lazy. They are almost constantly active during daytime, engaged in some project or another. If they want to spend a day lying on a grassy hillside watching birds or just relaxing, who complains?
Elves do not regard material acquisitions as anything important, instead preferring to cultivate music, art, and poetry that will outlive the years and the treasured possessions of others. Elves do not therefore try to accumulate gold or other treasures, except as a means to acquire the things that they truly treasure. Even the greatest paintings eventually fall to the weathering effects of time, becoming useless and valueless.
On the other hand, elves love to gaze at works of beauty and true craftsmanship. Oddly enough, elves are rather bad portrait artists. Perhaps because they try so hard to capture the inner elf that they haven't mastered the human method of painting, which combines the outer shell with inner beauty. As such, elves have been known to locate masterpieces of human artists, take them to their homes, and then use a secret technique to preserve them through the years. Although this is not a perfect means of preserving these pieces, it does give the art many more years of life.
Elves have developed other magical methods of preserving such works but will not share these with other races; the other races do not have a proper appreciation for the intricacies of art, and thus the preservation would be wasted on them. However, any of these races are free to journey to the elf cities to gaze on the works elves have felt important enough to save from the ravages of time.
Although they place little importance on material possessions, elves do have a clearly defined sense of ownership. Treasured items, such as magic or fine weaponry, sculpture or favored instruments, are definitely the property of their owners. Thievery of such items is highly frowned upon. Most elf thieves take their skills to the cities of humans or to the underground, where they may be put to use by adventuring parties. Elves caught stealing the treasures of other elves are cast away for half a century—preferably to learn proper loyalty to one's race.
Items that aren't important to their owners are usually freely loaned to other elves or to their non-elf friends. As long as the item is available when the original owner needs to use it, there is no problem. Most elves have learned that bickering over small questions of ownership and property are one of the surest ways to lose friends. They do their best to ignore the finer points of ownership and to share the fruits of their labors with others (as well as share the fruits of others' labors).

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Again, that may well apply to non-adventuring elves, but adventurers by their very nature are not like that...

Still, some of them start life with a more serious attitude, believing (despite the advice of their elders) that their time is too short to be spent frittering it away on such foolishness as dancing and singing or adventuring. As these elves grow older, they often become obsessed with finding a meaning to everything, seeking the fundamental truths of existence. Some few realize that their years are enough for both truth and fun and so would continue adventuring. Most, however, continue on in a somewhat joyless existence, spending their years associating exclusively with sages and elder beings. Eventually, they lock themselves away from true life. In seeking the "truth," they lose the meaning and purpose of that which they value most: their lives.

Added bold/underlined entries mine. That's how I would re-write it.

Here's my take on that. If an elf suddenly becomes withdrawn and morose as described in that entry, then the elf would quit adventuring. It does seem to indicate that very thing, as it describes hose elves as locking themselves away from true life and spending all their time in academic studies. Adventurers are called that for a reason - they go adventuring, they go on adventures...

Adventure: noun
1. an exciting or very unusual experience.
2. participation in exciting undertakings or enterprises

Adventuring elves by definition would not fall into that category of elves who:

As these elves grow older, they often become obsessed with finding a meaning to everything, seeking the fundamental truths of existence. Some few realize that their years are enough for both truth and fun. Most, however, continue on in a somewhat joyless existence, spending their years associating exclusively with sages and elder beings. Eventually, they lock themselves away from true life. In seeking the "truth," they lose the meaning and purpose of that which they value most: their lives.

I would argue that if the DM uses this material from the elven handbook and insists on level limits, then the elven PCs should be forced to retire upon reaching the level limit set for them. They, in essence, become those morose, hermetic elves who lose meaning and purpose.

And again, if the elf is adventuring alongside the human and having the same experience(s), how can he NOT gain levels? Experience points are precisely that - points given for experience. Experience is defined as defeating monsters (learning how to best combat them in the process), using spells creatively, etc. The idea that elves and humans are both being challenged in the same way and overcoming those challenges in the same way at the same time (i.e. gaining "experience", aka experience points), but the elf cannot gain levels from that experience while the human does is absolutely oxymoronic and absurd.

[lanir]

My biggest problem with level limits is they do not do what they advertise. Most of the AD&D characters I've played had their games blow up before they reached level 6. There is almost no way to reach a level limit by then. You have to delve into the Humanoids Handbook and play a half-orc, half-ogre or ogre priest of some sort. So if the non-humans were unbalanced without capping out their level, it follows they were always unbalanced in every game I played in.

My second biggest problem with level limits is that they hypocritically use the same argument to justify doing opposite things. This tells me clearly that those justifications are all false and the designers are lying to me. Once it becomes obvious it's all gibbering nonsense there's no escaping the realization that they detract from my games and have no place in them.

Setting Balance

If you're worried about setting balance, it's trivial. The core books may not have this printed in them but fantasy stories have been tackling this problem for decades. The common approach is to have longer lived races reproduce less and (generally speaking) take a more easygoing approach to life, learning, and accomplishing big things. As others have mentioned, adventurers are the exceptions in all races. None of the races in AD&D are supposed to be around for more than a few hundred years including elves (they do the Tolkien thing and migrate to a more enlightened zipcode) and the ones that can live to be older don't start until later. If your culture raises you to take it easy, it's hard to completely get beyond that. It's incredibly difficult to get rid of ideas you're taught as a young child even if you know they're wrong. Finally and perhaps most importantly, to gain levels one has to be challenged. Where are all these challenges coming from one after the other?

Let's use the archetype of The Elven Queen for a quick example. Usually she's someone with considerable political and magical power. Being a fairly mysterious archetype, she doesn't tip her hand often so it's difficult for others to get a handle on her abilities. And it's pretty common for her to have a great deal of personal magnetism and influence with those she's near. The qualities she has are perhaps more pronounced with this archetype but they're the same ones most elves have to one degree or other. They're just a bit more pronounced here. But if you think about it, none of this sounds like it would make for frequent adventures. Charisma and political power are used to send other people on adventures. One gets to be mysterious by having power and not using it openly. The only part that sounds like she'd make any kind of adventurer at all is the magical power and that's usually part of what's wrapped up in mystery. How do you take a story like this and end up with a 100th level adventurer? Even if you could envision that, what challenges would she find that would enable her to reach such a high level? Is she slipping off to spar with deities on their home turf every week?

The other long lived races are similar in a lot of ways. Not being in a rush, having their own concerns, and having a touch of the mysterious about them can easily keep NPCs from getting ridiculous. And I think most DMs can find plenty of reasons to say no if a high level campaign ends and some players want to run their high level demihumans alongside everyone else's first level characters. As for why those retired PCs aren't continuing to rapidly advance in levels, well... they just aren't at the center of the action anymore and have immersed themselves in other concerns.

A different approach

I was talking with one of my players who also runs his own games a couple weeks back about managing rarity in what characters players are allowed to build. This idea could easily be applied to races as well. Basically you hand out some points and hold an auction. You need more than one thing to bid on, preferably things that cater to styles of play that interest your players. Other things you could auction off at the same time are access to classes, plot hooks, unique starting gear, etc.

Example:

You have 6 players. You want at least half of them playing humans. You also plan to start the game by giving one of them the deed to some land in a dangerously monster-infested area. You don't want to see more than 2 rogues or 2 wizards and someone has to play a priest to provide healing. One person will also start the game with an elaborate, high quality blade imprinted with the crest of the local villain. Here's how you could break that up. Give everyone 100 points. Write down the options for each auction on index cards and have your players do an initial bid in secret, then openly try to bid up for the things they want. All bids are final. Afterward the bidding determines your place in line when choosing from that pool. If it's your turn to choose and there aren't any cards left to pick you get the default option.

Race Auction: default is human ; options allow dwarf or gnome or halfling ; any demihuman ; any demihuman or humanoid subject to DM approval

Class Auction: the options allow priest or wizard ; rogue or wizard ; rogue or warrior ; warrior or priest ; warrior ; priest

Plot Auction: options allow an important contact ; deed to land ; blade with the villain's crest on it ; no plot hook ; no plot hook ; initially suspected of being or working with the villain

The only part where this approach breaks down is if you have too many people that just don't care much about any of the auctions or if you don't have enough auctions to bid on. You can alter the points available too (maybe 5x # of auctions in total?) to limit the amount of time spent on each auction. Works best if the players are invested in making the choices.

The end result is the DM gets as much control as they need while the players still get to walk away feeling like they made all the really important decisions themselves.

[garhkal]

Tht sounds similar to how Shadow run does it, where part of your character build, takes into account "Do you wanna be a different race"..
Perhaps adnd could go that route by having X attribute rolling method for humans, Y for these two demi races, and Z for the others.. Where X is higher than Y, and Y is higher than Z.
IE 3d6 straight down the line for Z, 4d6 no reroll of one's straight down the line for Y, and 4d6, reroll 1's, assign as desired for X..

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Lanir wrote:

My biggest problem with level limits is they do not do what they advertise. Most of the AD&D characters I've played had their games blow up before they reached level 6. There is almost no way to reach a level limit by then. You have to delve into the Humanoids Handbook and play a half-orc, half-ogre or ogre priest of some sort. So if the non-humans were unbalanced without capping out their level, it follows they were always unbalanced in every game I played in

This was a major argument of mine in past debates elsewhere. You're 100% correct. In the average campaign, the rule rarely comes into play. So it changes nothing. What does it matter if the elf is capped at 6th or 12th level if the campaign is not likely to last long enough to hit that ceiling? Conversely, who in their right mind would go into what is expected to be a long-term campaign with the intention and belief of being able to reach high levels, knowing that their character is eventually going to lag behind so badly that he'll be reduced to a second-rate henchman/follower level character? So while the rule may discourage demihuman characters in a campaign expected to reach high levels, why ruin everyone's fun? Why use a rule that is essentially going to blackmail a player into playing a human? It's literally the most idiotic and useless rule ever to be included in AD&D.

My second biggest problem with level limits is that they hypocritically use the same argument to justify doing opposite things. This tells me clearly that those justifications are all false and the designers are lying to me. Once it becomes obvious it's all gibbering nonsense there's no escaping the realization that they detract from my games and have no place in them.

Gibbering nonsense is probably the best descriptor of demihuman level limits that I've ever heard it called. Bravo! I'm keeping that phrase!

If you're worried about setting balance, it's trivial. The core books may not have this printed in them but fantasy stories have been tackling this problem for decades. The common approach is to have longer lived races reproduce less and (generally speaking) take a more easygoing approach to life, learning, and accomplishing big things. As others have mentioned, adventurers are the exceptions in all races. None of the races in AD&D are supposed to be around for more than a few hundred years including elves (they do the Tolkien thing and migrate to a more enlightened zipcode) and the ones that can live to be older don't start until later. If your culture raises you to take it easy, it's hard to completely get beyond that. It's incredibly difficult to get rid of ideas you're taught as a young child even if you know they're wrong. Finally and perhaps most importantly, to gain levels one has to be challenged. Where are all these challenges coming from one after the other?

The argument of humans being threatened with extinction by those damned high level elves seems to have really become the argument of 2nd Edition. And it is by far the most idiotic argument I've ever heard, literally. "The dog ate my homework" and "Really officer, my speedometer isn't working right" are far more believable arguments. That's how bad the "high level elves will take over the world and dominate humans" argument is. Over the years I've posted dozens of reasons (I should track them all down and catalog them!) why this needn't be so. And each one:

1. Makes logical sense/common sense
2. Preserves game balance
3. Maintains internal consistency within the campaign
4. Does not in any way harm suspension of disbelief
5. Stays in keeping with game rules
6. Is in line with the mythology of the game

Let's use the archetype of The Elven Queen for a quick example. Usually she's someone with considerable political and magical power. Being a fairly mysterious archetype, she doesn't tip her hand often so it's difficult for others to get a handle on her abilities. And it's pretty common for her to have a great deal of personal magnetism and influence with those she's near. The qualities she has are perhaps more pronounced with this archetype but they're the same ones most elves have to one degree or other. They're just a bit more pronounced here. But if you think about it, none of this sounds like it would make for frequent adventures. Charisma and political power are used to send other people on adventures. One gets to be mysterious by having power and not using it openly. The only part that sounds like she'd make any kind of adventurer at all is the magical power and that's usually part of what's wrapped up in mystery. How do you take a story like this and end up with a 100th level adventurer? Even if you could envision that, what challenges would she find that would enable her to reach such a high level? Is she slipping off to spar with deities on their home turf every week?

Great points! And I would add that even settings like Forgotten Realms, which feature the elves in retreat to Evermeet, has Elminster and other high level human characters dominating the game and manipulating things behind the scenes to the point where some people hate the setting. Which I also find silly because the DM has total control. Elminster never had much of a say about anything in any of my campaigns. So we can use that to turn the argument around - if only humans have unlimited advancement, then why aren't the other races at risk of annihilation from the ultra-powerful high level humans?

The other long lived races are similar in a lot of ways. Not being in a rush, having their own concerns, and having a touch of the mysterious about them can easily keep NPCs from getting ridiculous. And I think most DMs can find plenty of reasons to say no if a high level campaign ends and some players want to run their high level demihumans alongside everyone else's first level characters. As for why those retired PCs aren't continuing to rapidly advance in levels, well... they just aren't at the center of the action anymore and have immersed themselves in other concerns.

That's another point I never thought of, thanks! Just because an elf lives 1,000 years or more, there's no reason the elf won't take off a few decades or so to work on some research or create some special item or complete some task. Just because those races are longer-lived does not imply that they must attain very high levels, only that they may attain such lofty levels.

I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of the auction idea, mainly because I prefer everyone play the character he or she wants to play. But that system would certainly work.