Opinions & Help Please. 3/3.5/4E

[Cole]

Nick says (11:17 AM):
everyone gets the ability to heal them selves, no need for a cleric

THAT IS HORRIBLE .... I can see people using potions, bandages etc. BUT if its a magical healing ability ... thats just wrong

Don't like the force at 10th lv either into a new class... wow! That list is easily enough to make me hate 4e ...

why would they do that to the game? Sounds like WoW P&P

[JadedDM]

Yeah, they call them healing surges. The character can heal himself whenever he wants, assuming he still has healing surges remaining. I think the surges regenerate every time the character rests, so unless you're really getting pounded, you tend not to run out. All clerics and other healers do is trigger the healing surges for you. In other words, the cleric doesn't heal you, he just lets you heal yourself without using a turn.

why would they do that to the game? Sounds like WoW P&P Sad

Exactly. WoW and other MMORPGs are all the rage these days, and WotC wants to cash in on that craze.

[greenknight]

Don't like the force at 10th lv either into a new class... wow! That list is easily enough to make me hate 4e ...

What you have to realise is that a lot of people are just using hearsay. It's happened with every edition of D&D I know of and it's likely to continue to happen with every new one. What you're reading here isn't the full story, and some of it is outright wrong.

Let's take this "forcing characters into a new class" business as an example. You don't leave your primary class in 4e - ever. Even if you do multiclass, you mostly stay with your first class and pick up a few features of the second class.

So what happens at 11th and 21st level? It's actually a pretty cool concept IMO. At 11th level, you get to choose a Paragon Path. Your class always qualifies you for at least one Paragon Path, and there's usually four presented for each class. You can also choose to take a Paragon Path of some other class, provided you qualify for it. What the Paragon Path does is give you a few unique benefits in addition to what the other members of your class would normally get.

A practical example of this: I start my character as a Rogue. I don't even try to qualify for some other class' Paragon Path, so at 11th level my Paragon Path choices are Cat Burglar, Daggermaster, Master Infiltrator and Shadow Assassin (all Rogue class Paragon paths). I decide the Shadow Assassin path suits my character best and I immediately gain some benefits from that choice, including a special attack only a Shadow Assassin can make.

As my character gains levels, he continues to gain Rogue powers, and he continues to gain a small number of benefits unique to the Shadow Assassin path. For example, at 12th level, he gets a power associated with his paragon path, while at 13th level he gets to choose a power from the Rogue path.

At 21st level, my character is considered to be Epic in nature, and can now choose an Epic Destiny. This is essentially an answer to the question "what will happen to my character beyond 30th level"? In the PHB, there are four such destinies: Archmage (Wizards only), Epic Trickster, Demigod and Eternal Seeker. Just like with multiclassing and the Paragon paths, the character stays with his main class, but also gains some unique abilities based on his final destiny. And eventually, the character may fully attain that destiny, passing on into myth and legend....

Running through the rest of it:

Video Game....

Haven't I seen this somewhere before, about some other edition??? Maybe it's just because games like WoW were actually inspired by D&D?

everyone now starts the game with 11hp + a set amont of hp based on the base class, so you always have max hp that you can possible have

A bit garbled, but mostly correct. What really happens is you get your Con Score + (Class Base Hitpoints) at 1st level, and then a set amount of hitpoints (based on character class) each additional level. This means you get more hitpoints at 1st level than a typical 3e character, but because you don't apply your Constitution modifier with each new level, if you have a Con score of 12+, eventually you'll have fewer hitpoints than you would have in 3e. Essentially, this makes lower level characters more playable, and higher level characters less formidable.

As for the fixed hitpoints, I've been playing that way for years now. It takes a lot of the randomness out of gaining levels (you don't worry about rolling a 1, and no one can cheat and claim they rolled max hitpoints when they didn't). I find it's almost essential to do it that way if you want even a moderately balanced game.

everyone gets the ability to heal them selves, no need for a cleric

Nick may have got this garbled. Everyone can heal themselves in combat, but it's only once per encounter unless they can access special healing powers (like those available from a Cleric). It usually takes the place of the character's attack and usually restores 1/4 of the character's max hitpoints. That's called Second Wind, and it's like the character taking a moment to clear his/her/it's head, and refocus on the battle at hand. Think of it as an adrenalin rush.

Out of combat, they can use this as much as they like (or are able to), provided they have time for a short rest (5 minutes without interruption). This is unrealistic, but it allows characters to take on the next encounter as fresh as they can be. That's an important point, because often I find characters are too worn down to have a real big boss fight after they struggle through the challenges they need to face just to get there.

as a matter of fact their is now a warrior class called the guardian who has AE healing ability based on the healing surges with all the powers of a warrior
Nick says (11:19 AM):
character classes are split into three fields: protectors, aggressors and controllers

I'll tackle these two together because they relate to one another. There are four primary roles in 4e: Defender, Striker, Leader and Controller.

I'm guessing the "protectors" are 4e's Defenders, represented by the Fighter and Paladin classes in the PHB. And I'm also guessing the "guardian" is the Paladin. Not surprisingly (to me at least), Paladins do have healing abilities, although offhand I can't find one that works off an Area of Effect. Though it wouldn't surprise me too much to find they have one at higher levels.

Defenders are intended to draw attacks to them, and negate them with their high defences (if possible) or absorb them with their high hitpoints (if they have to). To help them with that, they have a range of class abilities which penalise foes who don't attack them.

Fighters are the more aggressive of the two Defender types, attracting their foes attention and then beating them up, usually with something sharp, heavy and/or pointy. Paladins are the true defenders, getting their foe's attention and then weathering the storm until his/her/it's allies can wipe the foe out. Paladins can do some real damage, but Fighters are definitely the better choice if that's what you want to do.

Strikers are what I expect Nick calls the "Aggressors". We used to call them "glass cannons". They can dish out a lot of damage, particularly to a single foe, but they can't really take it - at least, not as well as a Defender can. In the 4e PHB, Rangers, Rogues and Warlocks are the Strikers. Rangers are versatile - they can be very effective in melee or ranged combat. Rogues tend to go for melee, but all they really need is a distracted or unaware foe, so they can also work from a distance. Warlocks tend to stay as far away from their targets as possible, but unfortunately for them, their powers are only medium ranged so they can't always avoid melee.

Nick forgot to mention Leaders, but these are classes which provide buffs for other classes. Specifically, the Cleric and Warlord. Both can provide healing, by tapping into whatever healing surges a character has remaining. But they provide more healing than the character could provide just using the surge himself because of their power. Clerics are far better healers than Warlords, but Warlords are better at group combat.

Then there's controllers, solely represented by Wizards in the PHB. Based on this rather limited sample, controllers seem to be about controlling what the enemy can do. They achieve that primarily by using area effect powers and powers which inhibit a foe's abilities. Wizards add a lot of general utility powers to that.

the dragon born race is terrible
Nick says (11:24 AM):
+2 str, +2 con, ability to use a breath weapon once per encounter... thats it

Ho boy! It's +2 Str and +2 Cha. If it were really +2 Str and +2 Con, Dragonborn would be too good to be true! Even so, there's lots of good classes Dragonborn qualify for - Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Warlock and Warlord. That's out of 8 PHB classes! They also get a +1 bonus to hit when they are at half max HP, with bonuses to hit being like gold in 3e. They are also the only race who get to add their Constitution modifier to the hitpoints they gain when they spend a Healing Surge, making them more durable. And that breath weapon Nick thinks so little of? It's a really nice area attack which can really give the character an edge at low levels.

Dragonborn aren't going to be the best fit for everyone, but they're far from being terrible. Except as Wizards - I wouldn't use them for that...

the character class system is incomplete, so is the ability section and the spell section
Nick says (11:26 AM):
in the first 45 pages they tell you multiple times to go to their online services and pay a monthly fee to get access to more options for character generation and class options and classes

I don't think Nick really looked at the PHB. Maybe he just saw some people playing the introductory game. Because the PHB is complete, and in fact includes the full list of magical items in the game (moved from the DMG). Yes, there are additions available on the web, but it's perfectly feasible to play without them (and I expect most people will). What people are complaining about is that some of the traditional classes (such as Barbarian, Bard, Druid and Monk) aren't included in the PHB. That's a fair enough complaint, but looking at the 4e PHB, it's got about the same number of pages as the 3.5e PHB, and it's packed with content. Maybe they could have shoehorned one more class in, but it's not like you're really short of choices as is.

[HEGDEHgrinsLAST]

At 21st level, my character is considered to be Epic in nature, and can now choose an Epic Destiny. This is essentially an answer to the question "what will happen to my character beyond 30th level"? In the PHB, there are four such destinies: Archmage (Wizards only), Epic Trickster, Demigod and Eternal Seeker.

This makes it... So... You can't be an archmage and a demigod? An epic trickster and an archmage? A demigod and an epic trickster? A demigod, epic trickster and an archmage? What's that?????!!!! But archmages are just extra.powerful mages, however demigods are more than mere mortals, and epic tricksters are just extreme rogues or divine rogues... But normally a high-level character could be any of those three... And... What about "eternal seeker"? What's that and why's that good? Just by words becoming a demigod shall eb far better than anything else in here... becoming an archmage would be 2nd best, becoming an epic trickster would just be a thing 'bout fame... and... if I seek something I rather find it very soon

[greenknight]

This makes it... So... You can't be an archmage and a demigod? An epic trickster and an archmage? A demigod and an epic trickster? A demigod, epic trickster and an archmage? What's that?????!!!!

No, they are different destinies - you can only have one final destiny. Your character's soul doesn't split into two (or more) parts! Granted, 4e isn't very simulationist, but that's a bit much even for this edition! Maybe I should clarify this: You only start your Epic Destiny at 21st level. You don't achieve it until sometime in 30th level, which is the only time when you can actually fulfil your Destiny Quest. And characters don't actually have to choose their Epic Destiny at 21st level. They just don't get the benefits of any Epic Destiny until they do, and if they get to 30th level without choosing one they just stay at that level until they do.

But archmages are just extra.powerful mages, however demigods are more than mere mortals, and epic tricksters are just extreme rogues or divine rogues...

In 4e, each of those Epic Destinies, plus Eternal Seeker, create a character who is more than a mere mortal. If they achieve their final destiny (and just setting foot on the path does not guarantee they'll make it all the way to the end), they will become Immortal and automatically become an NPC. The character is famous, and his/her/it's name passes into myth and legend. The actual character usually leaves the mortal plane entirely, although can come back to visit on occasion. It's intended to be the point where the character exits the game in glory (or infamy).

And don't be fooled by the names. With the exception of Archmage, none are firmly tied to any particular class (and Wizards aren't required to become Archmages either). Archmages are very powerful Wizards, so powerful they can die and automatically come back to life (once per day, after they reach 24th level). The Deadly Trickster is someone who relies on good fortune, which can apply to any character (and seems especially suitable for adventurers). Most of their powers revolve around manipulating die rolls, but they also get an "Epic Trick" once per day, which gives them incredible powers of recovery. Going the Demigod path just makes you better and more able to survive in your chosen career, which would suit any character type. While those on the Demigod path don't get to automatically come back to life if they are slain, they do automatically recover half their max hitpoints if they're reduced to 0 hp or less (but it only happens once per day).

But normally a high-level character could be any of those three...

Not Archmage, that's really Wizards only. But if that's the kind of thing you want, Demigod is fairly similar mechanically. And it's trivially easy to retool and reflavour the Archmage so any class can take it.

And... What about "eternal seeker"? What's that and why's that good?

The "Eternal Seeker" is all about freedom of choice. When you choose this path, you can choose to gain the powers of any class when you gain levels. Later, you gain powers which allow you to gain another action in the following round if you spend an Action Point (these are scarce, and PCs can usually only spend 1/encounter at most to gain one more action in the round). At 30th level, they can take any one Epic Destiny feature (one that's granted at 22nd level) from another Epic Destiny as their own.

[Ismaels-Legacy]

I had some guy try to tell me that the lack of customization of character classes in this edition forces you to role play your character to make them unique!

[Rivselis]

Nick says (11:17 AM):
everyone now starts the game with 11hp + a set amont of hp based on the base class, so you always have max hp that you can possible have

I house ruled in second that every character received max HP allowed by class, plus whatever constitution added in. The only difference in fourth is that leveling up is now strictly by immediate gains- which makes constitution choices at low levels MORE important. Less die rolling, more player decisions.

Nick says (11:17 AM):
everyone gets the ability to heal them selves, no need for a cleric

First, this isn't true. Second winds may be used once per battle (encounter to be technical), for 1/4th of a player's HP, regained. All this does is free up the cleric to be something other than "Healer".

Nick says (11:18 AM):
as a matter of fact their is now a warrior class called the guardian who has AE healing ability based on the healing surges with all the powers of a warrior

If you mean the Warlord, you're talking about a support class who is more geared towards helping the party than being a frontline god or a healing master. The warlord is not a fighter mixed with a cleric.

Nick says (11:23 AM):
the dragon born race is terrible
Nick says (11:24 AM):
+2 str, +2 con, ability to use a breath weapon once per encounter... thats it
Nick says (11:24 AM):
a half orc would beat the <snot> them

I can't say much about the other races either. Woo, elves get to re-roll one attack if they miss. Woo, Eladrin can teleport. And both of those races only get +2 to two different stats too. Did I mention humans only get to add +2 to -ONE- stat? (Of course, they get an additional at-will).

Nick says (11:24 AM):
the character class system is incomplete, so is the ability section and the spell section
Nick says (11:26 AM):
in the first 45 pages they tell you multiple times to go to their online services and pay a monthly fee to get access to more options for character generation and class options and classes

As presented, the class system is only incomplete if you consider the suckiness of the epic-destinies and the lack of paragon paths to take. And yes, the constant advertising of the online material is sickening.

As to 4th edition being more like a video game, I find that characters rely more on how the players decide to play them than on what class they pick. Instead of there being sucky classes and good classes, you get sucky players and good players. Things are balanced. That HP change? Now you have a much greater chance of not being screwed by the dice while rolling for HP. The powers change? Suddenly the wizard doesn't run out of spells in combat (I won't even get into the confusion regarding spell level vs. Character level, that's gone now). As to powers for all characters advancing equally, that's not all that bad. Everybody will have pretty much the same number of options in combat, within reason. Instead of the fighter whacking things with his sword, he gets to do that AND push the guy, or hit someone else with the same attack, or deal damage on a miss.

[Cole]

WoW! .... this makes my head spin.

At least I can see the facts now, just doesn't appeal to me at all. I'm still an old school person. I can finally chok down 3E's idea of D&D and now 4E is here and it's WAYY off the scale. Some things sound neat, but it sounds like a game for kids, not for adults. I guess choice is good.. but to much choice makes it impossible for groups of people to play together as some don't know one set of rules from the other.

I don't think 4E is gonna fly with the general public... in my opinion

[Stormonu]

I firmly like 3.5E, despite its warts; 4E strikes me as a step backward in D&D's evolution, not a step forward. There's a few things I wouldn't mind taking from 4E back into previous editions, but overall there's very little I would recommend about 4E overall.

I will say I really do like the ideas of Second Wind from 4E - whether it's a rush of adrenaline or tapping on quasi-magical reserves, the idea that all classes can heal themselves to some degree is appealing. I always hated the idea the you *have* to have a cleric to get healing of some sort always irked me.

Monster creation in 4E is about 80-90% easier than in 3E, but unless you're really creative with giving the monsters unique "powers", 4E's monsters have cookie-cutter stats.

The power system of 4E though, as nice as it looks on the surface, I'm really disappointed with it. It's creatively stifling in the "you can't do that unless you have power that says you can" kind of way. In 2E & 3E, you could make a character from the get-go that could disarm an opponent from 1st level - maybe not all the time, but you could at least try. In 4E, that's not possible unless your a 17th level Fighter with the Exorcism of Steel power. I just don't like that kind of thing.

[Stormonu]

WoW! .... this makes my head spin.

At least I can see the facts now, just doesn't appeal to me at all. I'm still an old school person. I can finally chok down 3E's idea of D&D and now 4E is here and it's WAYY off the scale. Some things sound neat, but it sounds like a game for kids, not for adults. I guess choice is good.. but to much choice makes it impossible for groups of people to play together as some don't know one set of rules from the other.

I don't think 4E is gonna fly with the general public... in my opinion

I think you hit on one of the things about 4E. It's not a "serious" game - more beer & pretzels type gaming, and I'm pretty sure the demographic is aimed lower than previous editions have been. Not that it's a bad thing - I started playing D&D when I was 9. But, y'know, you don't market pokeman to adults, and I get the impression that 4E isn't marketed to people past their twenties - more like the 12-15 age group.

[BenTheLucky]

I think you hit on one of the things about 4E. It's not a "serious" game - more beer & pretzels type gaming, and I'm pretty sure the demographic is aimed lower than previous editions have been. Not that it's a bad thing - I started playing D&D when I was 9. But, y'know, you don't market pokeman to adults, and I get the impression that 4E isn't marketed to people past their twenties - more like the 12-15 age group.

Hmm, the Monster Manual reads like a collectible card game to me.
Let's look at WotC's big product lines:

Pokemon -> Duel Masters -> Magic: The Gathering -> D&D 4e

Are they cultivating a demographic?

[Ghost_of_Rustigo]

ITT: Gamers who are realizing commercial markets don't care about them anymore.

4E isn't intended for actual gamers. They don't care about people who already have well-established games using a previous rules-set. They want the 15-19 crowd that was introduced to fantasy with games like WoW.

I think 3.X was the last true attempt to redefine the AD&D game for gamers. It was a gutsy move to begin with (how long had 2E been around before they tried this?), and it was largely successful. But 3E gamers now are in a place where 2E gamers were when 3E came out - watching their game pass them by. Only now, WotC is after a completely different demographic.

OGL may be the best mistake ever made on behalf of gamers. New content can come out for gamer demographics, while WotC focuses on the WoW kiddies.

[Crimson-Kobold]

I still say the WoW argument is batty. I just don't see how this supposedly attracts WoW players.

[Cole]

I still say the WoW argument is batty. I just don't see how this supposedly attracts WoW players.

Simplicity CK, fight, whack, kill, fight whack kill ... boring tactics, simple rules, no real game thought required.

WoW represents a game for people who like to drink, talk to them moms and watch tv at the same time. It's not for thinkers .... its not for anyone that wants to be good at a game or proud of it. Almost everyone on WOW servers SUCK at playing the game... they don't even know how to make a good character to take advantages of the skills etc. < FOR KIDS

and thus we have 4E. At least at first glance, I would say its designed for the younger crowd. They don't have to read nearly as much or worry about rules getting in the way. Class are virutally the same... diversity is just not there.

but then again... the more I read 3E , the more I hate all the nit picking shit in the game. AND I continue to make it easier to play myself... but I'm not about to change the classes / races etc.

Lets be honest here. 4E is ABOUT MONEY! If WotC don't keep publishing stuff, they die! So there WILL be a 5E and a 6E etc. etc. and when that stops... they DIE!

Simple as that

WotC

[Ghost_of_Rustigo]

I still say the WoW argument is batty. I just don't see how this supposedly attracts WoW players.

These two things catch my eye:

1) Picking a specialization class after 10th level. I've never played WoW (I got out of the MMORPG craze early), but the games I did play were exactly like this: pick a base class, and after so many levels, pick a specialization path off of that base class.

2) All combat oriented. If the game is really designed to just put some characters through some dungeon crawl with little or no skills/powers devoted to non-combat situations, it is basically a video game. What do you do in WoW? You exit the city, kill stuff, take their loot, sell, and repeat. One of the things that always turned me off about those games was that the loss of the human element meant the game became formulaic and combat-dependent. It sounds like that is what is being achieved here.