Paladins/clerics/rangers.. Rank structure??

[garhkal]

Ok, so lets say you have a cleric AND a paladin (or ranger) of the same church AND faith(god) in the party.. Whom outranks whom? Does anyone outrank the other?

If someone does 'in effect outrank' the other, if that higher ranked character, gave an order to the other, does he have to follow it?
If he didn't, would there be any in game consequence??

[JadedDM]

In my homebrew setting, churches that have a hierarchy determine rank based on level. Since party members tend to be around the same level, that means they'd be equals.

[Lyrwik]

I think it could vary between different religions, with them effectively forming separate hierarchies (with clerics in the primary hierarchy and paladins in the 'military' hierarchy). However not all would necessarily differentiate between the two. As a general rule, I'd be inclined to have the clerics as being generally senior, since they're the ones who are solely focused as priests of the religion. However, not all clergy would necessarily have granted powers, so it could also be possible for a priest without abilities to be more senior, based on how learned they are in their teachings, how long they have been in the clergy, or any other means of measuring seniority which may be applied.

So, the short answer would be - it could really be any, but I'd generally favour priests being senior to paladins, but only as a starting point.

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

I'd go with the cleric as well.

The paladin is a holy warrior who dedicates himself to a particular religion/god, but the cleric is an official representative of the god. While the god grants both classes magical abilities, the cleric obviously gets far more spells and spells of higher level, with possibly as many (or even more) special abilities. Clearly, the cleric outranks the paladin in this respect. When it comes to turning undead, that ability represents the cleric's connection to his god's holy power. Since the paladin turns as a cleric two levels lower, that once again shows the cleric wins rank. Also, keep in mind that the cleric in 1E is considered a Patriarch of the Church at 8th level and a High Priest by 9th level. A paladin is always a paladin and does not gain rank in the hierarchy of the church. So it's cleric all the way.

I would think though, that a higher level paladin (say 9th level or so) could in some way outrank (or at least command the respect and subservience of) a cleric of low level (1st - 5th maybe?). In other words, if a 1st or maybe 3rd level cleric joined the party and there was a 9th level paladin on the team of the same church as the cleric, I'd say the cleric would defer to the paladin if the issue came up.

[garhkal]

So lets say (2e terms here), that you had a party of a 7th level bard, 5th level wizard (invoker specialist), 6th level fighter, 4th/4th fighter/thief, 6th level cleric of BOB, and a 4th level paladin of BOB..

The cleric pc, gives an order to the paladin, cause of something he is doing wrong.. But the player of the paladin, IGNORES said order...
What sort of penalties would arise?

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Good question. I guess if it pertains to matters of the church - and assuming the paladin is in the wrong - the cleric could threaten to excommunicate the paladin. There was a spell for that (ceremony?) in 1E. Or perhaps the cleric could call on his god to chastise the paladin. I can even see the cleric ordering the paladin to obey - or else. Of course, it would have to be pretty serious for it to go to combat. But yeah, I can see those things happening.

[Lyrwik]

The cleric pc, gives an order to the paladin, cause of something he is doing wrong.. But the player of the paladin, IGNORES said order...
What sort of penalties would arise?

I suppose it would depend on the nature of the order, the nature of the deity in question, and whether the hierarchy is simply the hierarchy of the clergy (for organisational purposes) or also recognised by the god.

If the hierarchy is purely administrative in nature, then the church could impose some sort of punishment, in terms of requiring some sort of additional service, withholding support, or demanding some other form of minor atonement.

However if the hierarchy was also recognised/required to be adhered to by the god, then there could be a much more significant punishment (from the deity), particularly if the disobedience amounts to failing to live up to the requirements of paladinhood. However, I'd think this would only really be the case if the order was of relevance to furthering the god's interests. Alternatively if the god is one which requires strict adherence to structure (eg. a lawful god of war perhaps), then disobeying a proper order may also be a failure to adhere regardless of whether the order was in furtherance of the god's interests (as long as it wasn't counter to the god).

[Halaster-Blackcloak]

Lyrwik, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head there! I agree 100%!

[garhkal]

Well, luckily all this is hypothetical right now.. brought from a q over on DF. BUT you never know. it could come up.

And not even with the pal or ranger. BUT two or more clerics of the SAME order and god in the party, all of varying levels..